Supporting Your Baby: Empathy, Readiness and Connection with Marsha Dunn Klein, OTR/L, MEd

0 (1s):

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0 (43s):

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1 (1m 0s):

If the babies on the highchair are we with the baby and focusing on the baby, we are not playing with our phone, we are not watching tv, we're not in phone calls. We are right with the baby and we might be eating. If our goal in feeding is to help babies be internally motivated to eat enough and enjoy it, then we want them to initiate how much they want to eat at each meal and how they wanna explore foods. But if we stand over them and say things like, well have a bite, here's a different one, how about this one? Yay, you ate that one. If we do a whole lot of sort of cheerleading, we're taking the attention away from their motivation to eat.

1 (1m 41s):

You know, we wanna make sure that the motivation for eating is coming from the baby. We give 'em cups, we give them spoons, we give them straws, we give them different shapes, foods and sizes of foods. It's their pace as they go forward with that.

0 (1m 55s):

Hey there, I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietician, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby-led weening here on the baby-led Weening Made Easy podcast. I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leaving you with the confidence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby led weening. I don't know about you guys, but remembering to use a positive language at mealtimes does not always come naturally to me. I'm the first one to be like, no, if the baby drops something or does something that I don't want to. But my guest today is the queen of positive language and support and empathy and connection.

0 (2m 40s):

Marsha Dunn Klein is back on the podcast today teaching us about some easy techniques to support our baby through empathy, readiness and connection. Marsha Dun Klein is an occupational therapist, she's a feeding therapist, she's the founder of the Get Permission Institute. She's been on the podcast numerous times. I'm gonna drop a bunch of her other interviews in this episode description because like if you haven't heard or learned from Marsha, once you start, you can't stop. I know for me personally, she's just like constantly lighting me up, always have a smile on my face when I talk to her. And I loved this conversation where she really is talking about letting our babies show us internally how they're motivated to eat.

0 (3m 22s):

And it's gonna take a lot of pressure off of you if you're feeling like, oh my gosh, my baby's not eating as much as I want, or I think they should be. Marsha Dun Klein is here to help us support our babies at mealtimes through empathy, readiness and connection. Here's Marsha.

1 (3m 40s):

Hi Katie. It's great to be here and thank you for all you do to share information to our families all around the world.

0 (3m 47s):

Oh my pleasure. I have a huge smile on my face. I just love chatting with you. You're always working on a million different interesting projects. I don't know how you balance it all, but curious, could you tell us what work endeavor you're working on right now that's really exciting you these days?

1 (4m 2s):

I'm really involved with Get Permission Institute. It's an online teaching platform where we're putting lots of information out there for professionals. We have a free class on that website called Dear Parents for Parents, and we're developing more material for parents and professionals all the time, Katie. So I'm loving that. And at the end of April I'm doing a presentation for Feeding Matters for their annual conference. And I'm really excited to think about ways to challenge we therapists out here to sort of shift our thinking in pediatric therapy towards a much more compassionate lens. So that's one of my favorite topics right now. And we're gonna talk about some of those things today.

0 (4m 44s):

Ooh, compassionate feeding therapy. I like this. So last time you were on the podcast, Marsha, we were talking about pre feeding skills and you were sharing things that parents and caregivers can do with their baby before they start solid foods. In this interview, we're gonna fast forward to the point where the baby actually has started learning how to eat some solid fusers, starting to explore something beyond infant milk. And you talk about the importance of supporting your baby with empathy, readiness, and connection. So I wanna go through each of those three attributes. If you could define what they are and why they're important or how you would describe them maybe. So let's start with empathy.

1 (5m 20s):

You know, I think empathy is really important for us as humans. I think Atticus talked to Scout and to Kill a Mockingbird and said to her, you don't really know somebody until you've gotten into their skin and climbed around in it for a while. And I think about that as an important way for us to relate to people. And as a therapist, I think we need to have empathy and understand what parents are going through. And when you're a new parent, you're worried about when to feed your child and how much and what, as a therapist, I wonder how a baby's doing when they're struggling and what's going on in their body. And we wanna help parents think about the concept of empathy.

1 (6m 0s):

Hmm, I wonder what's going on in my baby's body right now. I wonder if what I'm offering is working or not working. Katie, you know that I come at feeding from a very responsive feeding approach, you know, and I believe feeding is communication back and forth between the baby and the parent. And you know that I talk a lot about, I, I think it's important for us to give babies opportunities, opportunities to meet food opportunities to be at the mealtime. Those opportunities are really important, but sometimes the baby isn't quite ready for it, you know? And, and so if the baby's being hesitant or worried or turning their head, instead of feeling like, oh my gosh, it's my job right now to put this food in my child's mouth because I'm supposed to.

1 (6m 49s):

Can we think and be curious? Hmm. I wonder what's going on for the baby today? You know, Katie, there's so many reasons why baby wouldn't eat, eat a food that was put on their tray. You know, they might not feel well. They might be getting a tooth, they might not be feeling quite as comfortable in their sitting skills and maybe hanging onto the highchair just to sit up. There's lots of things that could be going on for that baby. And so in empathy, what we're doing is encouraging parents to, to, to wonder, to be curious and to think about how can we create really, really positive experiences around mealtime so that this baby is comfortable and excited and wants to be there at the, in the high chair and learning about food.

0 (7m 32s):

So we got empathy. You covered readiness. Can you talk a little bit about connection?

1 (7m 36s):

When babies are born and they're doing early feeding, they are connecting with their parent. The parent is who's helping them make their world safe and trusting their parent is the person that's giving them food when they're hungry and changing their diaper when they're wet and putting 'em to sleep. The parent is who helps them build trust in their world. And from that trust place, babies learn, oh, I'm okay. I can regulate myself a little bit with my grownups help. I can learn to be brave. And after a while, we all know those babies that sit on parents' laps and now they're getting ready to get down and move away from their parents and then look back at their parents and connect with them and go, are you still their parent?

1 (8m 20s):

And it's the connection, it's the relationship, it's the proximity of that parent that gives that baby bravery to try new things and explore the world. And feeding is such a big adventure. So we wanna make sure we remember that when we are offering babies food, we're offering them in a way that they feel supported and connected. And when they're a little worried, we know they're gonna look to us for some extra support for that connection to help them feel brave and work through those little worries and wiggles, right?

0 (8m 52s):

Absolutely.

1 (8m 53s):

Katie, I saw a baby recently who was under a checklist of ideas would be ready to start baby led weening, a really excited, delighted mom. That baby was, you know, baby just, just six months of old of age, like just to the day. And she was saying, saying to herself, well my baby's six months, it's time to do baby lead weening. But the baby was placed in the height chair and the parent offered all the, you know, the first two weeks, all kinds of great kinds of foods. And the baby was worried when I saw a video of this baby, this baby's eyes were wide, wide open. She kept looking at the parent and looking at the food and hanging on to the side of the highchair and just head worry.

1 (9m 40s):

And you and I both know that babies are all so unique and different. Some jump right into those first opportunities and are thrilled to explore all the sensory aspects of those foods. And others are kind of saying, well maybe, but I'm not sure. But what I picked up on in this baby's videos was her worry. Some babies are more worried than others, some are more brave. So the mom was saying, gosh, I'm worried. Why? Why isn't she doing any of this stuff? And so I said to her, instead of changing the food, instead of changing what you're doing, you're doing the right offers. Could you do one thing? Could you connect a little closer to the baby?

1 (10m 21s):

Because it looked in the video like the baby was sitting in that highchair on an island. Both parents were standing over this child saying, Hey, you wanna try it? Here's some food, here's some other food, here's some other food. And really all we did was say, Hmm, for this baby right now, could you put her back on your lap? Could you give her just a little more support? Leaning right there on that nice little food mat. Still put food out in front of her, giving her just a little more trunk support and a little more emotional support, A little more connection.

0 (10m 56s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back.

4 (11m 5s):

Hi friend, my name is Ali Kaza. I am the host of the Chart Topping podcast, the purpose show. My show is for moms. And we talk about all kinds of things. We talk about starting growing an online business. We talk about living purposefully at home. If you're a stay-at-home mom, a working mom, it doesn't matter if you are raising a family and wanting to level up in yourself, always wanting to grow, always evolving, always improving, curious about lots of different topics. This show is for you. We have spiritual conversations. We have productivity conversations. Honestly, not a lot is off limits.

4 (11m 46s):

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0 (12m 4s):

Okay, I know parents are gonna ask when you take the baby out of the high chair, doesn't the baby then become conditioned to expect being able to sit on your lap and if ultimately long-term we want the baby to sit in the high chair, when do you make that call of being like, okay, we're, I know you're talking about the very first few days where you might do things differently, but for parents that are constantly needing to hold the baby and not allow them to sit in the high chair, where do we, where do we make that break or know the baby? You should be sitting in the high chair.

1 (12m 31s):

You know, I feel like it's a call we have to make individually. Of course our goal is that that baby's in that high chair, being independent, celebrating autonomy, doing it themselves, it's messy. It's a, it's a great and a terrific place for babies to learn about feeding. And we need to be aware that in the beginning, not all babies have the same sitting skills. Not all babies have the same motor planning skills and just because we want them to be in the highchair someday, I believe we can for those babies that have extra worry, right? We can start 'em in our, in our lap. I mean if you think about it Katie, if you've got a four month old or a five month old, they can sit on your lap while you're eating.

1 (13m 15s):

You're not expecting them to eat lots of food, they're just learning about the mealtime. So this baby is in my mind, in that category of still just learning about food in positive ways. When the baby shows that they have skills in terms of I can use my arms separately from my trunk, I can reach, I can bring things to my mouth. I'm kind of interested in this whole process. I would wanna then turn the baby back towards the highchair. But of course still make it a mealtime. Still sit with them, still be there. And the lap period is not much different than that four or five month period where they're just around food. It's just that the expectation is that this baby isn't quite showing the enthusiasm on day one of six months.

1 (13m 58s):

But in day 14 of six months or day 27 of six months, their emotional and physical readiness may have changed. So when we think about this big concept of readiness, we, we have to think about what we are offering when we are, when we talk to parents about how to do baby-led weaning and what kind of foods work and and and how the highchairs a great idea and all those things. Those are all extremely important, valuable bits of information. And we can never lose track of the idea that we are still offering this baby food within the environment of that baby's temperament and that baby's skills at the moment. And being very aware that there is some fluctuation in typical temperament.

1 (14m 41s):

There are sh some variation in the way that children feel emotional ready for some challenges and regulation on their own.

0 (14m 49s):

And that's so important for parents to hear from, from you Marsha, who's fed tens of thousands of babies over a number of decades. Cuz for a lot of people listening, they have one baby and have maybe only ever fed or are trying to feed one baby and realizing, you know, this distinction between emotional and physical readiness and not, it doesn't, they don't just wake up on their six month birthday and you flip the switch and like now they need to get all their nutrition from food. And yet there are many parents that carry those ideas into the second half of infancy. So I know I appreciate as well as people listening the reminder that all babies are different and they're gonna get ready on their own schedule. And as a feeding therapist you work with families and you see babies when things are not going well.

0 (15m 31s):

And I think for families who maybe, gosh, does my baby need feeding therapy? And we've, we've covered that in other episodes, but could you share a situation whereby, like you talked about the mom and the dad that were kind of like standing far away from the highchair and you asked them to come closer and interact more with the baby. Can you give some other examples of things not to do? And I know you're not doing it from a judgemental space, just like suggestions that you would make in a typical feeding therapy session in order to encourage more connection based on things that you're seeing or witnessing where there's a disconnect between the baby and the family.

1 (16m 1s):

Yes. You know, the disconnect is often completely well-meaning as a parent, I want so much to do the right thing and have my baby eat right, but I always wanna remind us it is not our job to make kids eat or get food in them as grownups. And it is our job to support their learning. And when we talk about baby-led weaning or any transition to solids, the assumption is for most babies they're breastfeeding or bottle feeding and getting all their nutrition that way. So we don't have to be in a big hurry to say, I started feeding my baby today and by tomorrow I expect they're getting, you know, a bunch of meals every day and they're gonna be perfect in this transition.

1 (16m 44s):

It is a process and I, you and I have said this before, we introduce foods to babies and one of the things we're looking for is what do you love? What do you love? And so it's not that that pa, we wanna help that parent not feel that pressure that my child needs to eat a whole lot right away. They will show you their skill, they will show you their enthusiasm and they will show you their progress. As we in, we introduce a variety of things. I think it's important also to remember this is new territory for this baby. Can we sit with the baby? If, if the baby's on the highchair, are we with the baby and focusing on the baby? We are not playing with our phone, we are not watching tv, we're not in phone calls.

1 (17m 25s):

We are right with the baby and we might be eating. And if our goal in feeding is to help babies be internally motivated to eat enough and enjoy it, then we want them to initiate how much they want to eat at each meal and how they wanna explore foods. But if we stand over them and say things like, well have a bite, here's a different one, how about this one? How about this one? Yay you ate that one. If we do a whole lot of sort of cheerleading, we're taking the attention away from their motivation to eat and we're putting it into maybe they're eating cause the parents are, eat that good here, eat, go ahead, eat that.

1 (18m 6s):

You know, we wanna make sure that the motivation for eating is coming from the baby. We give 'em cups, we give 'em spoons, we give 'em straws, we give them different shapes, foods and sizes of foods. It's their case as they go forward with that. And when we sort of insert ourselves in there accidentally well-meaning, but when we do that we sometimes really are having them look to us rather than build their own bravery and their own eating cuz they want to and stopping when they wanna stop.

0 (18m 37s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break but I'll be right back.

5 (18m 43s):

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5 (19m 30s):

Again that's surveymonkey.com/r/airwave.

0 (19m 41s):

Marsha Doug Klein has a way with words that like nobody else on the planet does. I love that you called it cheerleading cuz I'm like, I use the term micromanaging like the mom is up there like wiping the baby's face and touching this and moving that. And like the way you just described it is like your intention is good as a cheerleader and you wanna see your baby succeed. But ultimately we, we have to learn as early on as a parent, you can't do everything for your kids and it even starts in infancy where we need to take a step back and you have been the person who's been keeping this baby alive with infant milk for the first six months of their life. So it is a little bit of a shift in your roles where all of a sudden you're like, hold up my baby can be doing some of this. And I love the way you described that internal motivation.

0 (20m 23s):

That was beautiful. Thank

1 (20m 24s):

You. Oh thanks Katie. You, another kind of early area that I wanna support parents with is this whole messiness about eating. Because one of the things that I know from spending time studying babies that the babies that come to me are the ones that are having challenges. But a lot of those kiddos have some worry about the sensory aspects of food. They don't like the feel of it or they don't, they don't like the texture of it or the smell is too big for them or it looks funny. You know, I see a lot of those kiddos. But one of the ways that children absolutely naturally have rehearsals around food that is a preview of what it's gonna be like in your mouth is when they get messy with it.

1 (21m 4s):

And we've all seen babies all the time that pick it up and squish it and put it down and squish it and bring it to their mouth and take it away and pick it up and squish it and roll it away. And they don't eat any of it this today, but maybe the next time they do or I, I can think of a baby that picked up this little piece of banana and put it in their mouth and took it out, put it in their mouth, took it out, put it in mouth and took it out and then took a bite and ate it and then made it ate and ate it. Those previews, those rehearsals, those sensory explorations gave that baby bravery and helped that baby know, hey I get the texture of this. I now know what it looks like. I got the smell. Hmm, I'm gonna try to eat this.

1 (21m 44s):

But the baby does it at their own pace. It's not like if the baby's kind of cautious with that banana, I wanna put it in her mouth to make her eat it. She'll do it, you know, she'll do it and the messiness is just part of it. So you mentioned when the parents, you know, some of us just wanna wipe faces and not let kids put anything on the floor and not let them get messy. But actually if we remember that's part of their exploration process and really actually kind of necessary then we help parents avoid some of the challenges that that could happen later.

0 (22m 18s):

And if you guys like this conversation about sensory stuff, Marsha was also on the podcast in the episode called Sensory 1 0 1, it was episode one 70 and she talked about what motivates babies to eat. And we went into a little more detail there about, you know, kind of the whole trend in parenting to over-diagnose and medicalize everything and people talking about their six month old having a sensory processing disorder cuz they heard the term one time and kind of just explore more of the sensory stuff in that episode. Again, that's episode one 70 and I love the way you teach about the importance of the sensory experience without like hammering it into people's head. Because I was actually thinking of you the other day, I went to Alaska for the first time ever. I did a talk for the Alaska Academy of Family Physicians and they're like, I love family physicians to begin with, but the ones in Alaska are amazing in the work they're doing with the different communities up there.

0 (23m 3s):

And, and they were kind of laughing at just the way I said I was from San Diego and they were laughing at a part of my presentation. We talked about parents reading food labels and they were like, that's so California to be reading your food labels. And this one mom was telling me, oh and that's also in California where you all send each other sensory boxes and sensory toys for your kids to play with. You wanna know how my kids learned about sensory experience shoving their hand in a sourdough starter and baking bread with me. And I was like, that's a sensory experience too. I get it. I, I thought of you because you were always teaching about these different sensory experiences and there's lots of ways to achieve it if it's a sensory box and a purchased toy or a a bit of bread, which I don't know your thoughts about that.

1 (23m 41s):

I personally am one of those humans that just thinks food is a sensory experience and, and so why are we going off and finding shaving cream and beans and rice when we could just, we could interact with food, right? We could actually use food as our way to learn about sensory.

0 (23m 55s):

And for the parents and caregivers who are listening and they are feeling stressed and overwhelmed by this transition to solid foods, can you share a final tip about how they can be supportive even on the hard days?

1 (24m 6s):

Yes, I can try and, you know, when I think about it as a hard day, I guess I wanna know more question, more information about that.

0 (24m 12s):

Of course you do cuz you're a therapist.

1 (24m 14s):

Yeah. Cause on a hard day the, the baby may not wanna eat cuz they're teething and okay, most babies teeth and they have, you know, ups and downs and their intake changes. And with baby lid weaning, you know, so well that babies start out with just little minor tastes in bits. You know, they're not getting whole entire meals. I mean the amount, the ability to take in a lot more food and then less breast milk or bottle milk that evolves over time. But if we could just remember that, you know, your, your babies doing the best they can at this moment and it's not the same exact way at every meal. That is helpful information. I, I guess I generally trust babies even though I work with lots of babies that have a lot of difficulties and challenges.

1 (24m 59s):

I generally trust babies to sort of show us this is what I need today and this is what I need tomorrow. And I guess my biggest bit of advice is when we get worried as grownups, it is our, what we do is we can hover a little extra, we can get a little more worried and a little bit more, here's some food, here's some food, here's some food. And, and if we can try not to do that, if we can try to back up and just be there for 'em, it's gonna look a little different each day. And what we have to remember is they're leading the pace, we're doing the offering, we're not doing the demanding and we're just loving them through their exploration of learning about new foods.

0 (25m 37s):

Marsha, thank you so much as always for sharing your time and your expertise, your insight with us. If there are parents out there or healthcare professionals listening who wanna sign up for one of your upcoming courses, where's the best place to

1 (25m 48s):

Do that? www.getpermissioninstitute.com is our online platform. I would say if you've got an older child who has some pickiness and some extra worry, the dear parent talk that's free would be an interesting one for you to check out. But for a lot of our new parents with six month olds that are just really beginning baby lit, weaning, it's, you know, you're not coming into problems that are tho you know, the kind of bigger problems we see with some of our older kids with, with those kind of challenges. Our platform has a brand new talk called Trust at the Table with Stephanie Cohen and she's, she talks a lot about the importance of trust and connection and it's a fabulous talk for parents and professionals.

1 (26m 34s):

So that might be an interesting one for a lot of people sort of thinking about trust and connection from a, in a different way than we ever have before.

0 (26m 42s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back.

6 (26m 45s):

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7 (27m 18s):

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8 (27m 25s):

Okay, here's a reason to listen to our show, big Picture Science, because you love to be surprised by science news. We love to be surprised by science news. So for instance, I learned on our own show that I had been driving around with precious metals in my truck before it was stolen.

7 (27m 42s):

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8 (27m 58s):

I don't think I can prepare myself for that.

7 (27m 60s):

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8 (28m 12s):

Future. Well, we can't affect lives in the past, right?

7 (28m 15s):

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8 (28m 22s):

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0 (28m 37s):

And Stephanie was recently on the podcast, we actually did two different interviews together. She talked a little bit about responsive feeding and episode three 12 and then some of these picky eating prevention tips and episode 3 0 6 just kind of, you know, setting your baby up for success because as many feeding therapists do, they talk, you know, a lot of the, what we see is actually preventable. And so sharing some of the suggestions and the tips and the tactics that you might start employing now to hopefully, you know, we love the work you do, Marsha, but at the end of the day we want people to not have to go to feeding therapy if some of these things that are preventable are taken care of earlier in the feeding relationship.

1 (29m 14s):

Absolutely. And you know, inadvertently we can get our roles confused if we remember that it's our role to offer, to provide opportunities that are developmentally appropriate and loving and to eat with children. So they learn about eating from us, from being around us, from watching our eating and let them go at their own pace. I think we're, we'll it generally goes pretty darn well

0 (29m 37s):

And I'm glad we break up all of these episodes cuz I feel like you've been on the podcast probably more than anyone else. And the whole idea of like, each time we talk they're like, oh my gosh, let's do this one next time. But you came on an episode 2 0 6 in an episode called Stay in Your Lane, parent and Baby Roles in Infant Feeding. And that's another interview with Marsha. And if you guys are like, Hmm, I wonder what my job is or I, I get confused about what the baby's supposed to be doing and what I'm supposed to be doing. Episode 2 0 6 about staying in your lane, that was packed with great info from Marsha about the difference between parent and baby roles. Marsha, thank you again so much. It's always a pleasure to chat with you. Thanks

1 (30m 10s):

Katie. I love being here.

0 (30m 12s):

Well I hope you guys enjoyed that interview with Marsha Dun Klein. She is seriously one of my favorite people on the planet. We were talking after the interview about the positive language stuff cuz it's just something I have to practice that it comes so naturally to her. And she said, well, yes, I am my, you know, my word cheerleading is perhaps a little bit softer than micromanaging. And I was like, yes, it totally is. She's amazing. Check out all of her offerings@getpermissioninstitute.com. I'm gonna link up a money of the other resources and the different episodes that she's already been on. Some of the things we chatted about in today's interview. That'll all be on the show notes for this episode, which you can find@blwpodcast.com slash three 20. And thank you to our partners at AirWave Media. If you guys like podcasts about food and science and using your brain, check out some of the podcasts from AirWave Media.

0 (30m 54s):

We're online@blwpodcast.com. Thanks so much for listening and being here and I'll see you next time. Okay, you are a loyal listener, I can tell because you're still listening at the end of this episode here, or maybe you're just too far away from your phone to change it to the next episode. But I wanted to ask you for a real quick favor. So recently the baby led Weenie Made Easy podcast joined the AirWave Media Network who helps us with our podcast ads management, and every year AirWave conducts a listener survey to help gain more insight into who is listening to which show. And I know you guys like things like Real Food and Responsive Feeding and Respectful Parenting, baby wearing Montessori, some are none or all of those things.

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But AirWave wants to hear from you via this listener survey so that the ads that you hear on this show are of use and of interest to you. It only takes a few minutes to complete the listener survey and you can be entered to win a $500 Amazon gift card at the end of the survey. As a thank you for participating. So to complete this survey, you have to go to this website, bit lee slash bw AirWave. Again, that's bt.ly/bw AirWave to complete the survey. And thanks so much for listening to the show.