Taste Training: Introducing Flavors to Babies with @getpermissioninstitute Marsha Dunn Klein, OTR/L, MEd, FAOTA

Strollercoaster (0s):

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Katie Ferraro (1m 5s):

Are you trying to squeeze the starting solid food stuff into your already busy schedule? Well, I have an all-in-one done for you solution that's going to take the guesswork out of feeding your baby. My online program is called Baby-Led Weaning with Katie Ferraro contains all of my Baby-Led Weaning training videos, the original 100 First Foods content library, plus a hundred day meal plan with recipes like the exact sequence of which foods to feed in which order. So if you wanna stop trying to piece all this feeding stuff together on your own, I would be honored if you would join me inside of the program. You can get signed up at babyledweaning.co/program.

Marsha Dunn Klein (1m 37s):

Our son showed so much interest in when we were eating, he was interested, he was watching it, he was reaching, but I thought I wasn't supposed to do anything with food till six and a half months. So she was completely waiting. When your child is showing so much interest in that apple you're eating, you could hand it to 'em, they can have a flavor. These are tastes, there are things that can happen naturally with rubbing fingers and teethers on foods to just give flavors beforehand when your baby showing an interest.

Katie Ferraro (2m 10s):

Hey there, I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in Baby-Led Weaning here on the Baby-Led Weaning with Katie Ferraro podcast. I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, giving you the confidence and knowledge you need to give you baby a safe start to Solid Foods using Baby-Led Weaning. Let's say you are sitting down for a much deserved break in your day. You make yourself a meal or a snack and you've got your four or your five month old baby sitting right there with you on your lap and your baby's been really interested in what you're eating lately.

Katie Ferraro (2m 50s):

Not to mention they've been mouthing the heck out of their own hands and bringing tons of other objects to their mouth. At this point, is it okay to give your baby a taste of what you're eating even though they're quote unquote not technically ready to start Solid Foods yet? So this idea, which is known as Taste Training, well today I've got the guru of the pre feeding space, Marsha Dunn Klein here to talk about how to safely discover flavors with your baby in the pre feeding phase. So Marsha's gonna be introducing you to this idea of Taste Training, talking about how to do it safely, how to do it organically. She's gonna explain how babies explore with tastes before they explore with texture.

Katie Ferraro (3m 30s):

And as an occupational therapist and a feeding specialist, Marsha's job is to work with families who are having feeding challenges. But I have her on this podcast as frequently as I can. A, because I just love any excuse to talk to Marsha Dun Klein. She is such an absolute joy, but she has such wonderful insight on what we can do as parents so that we don't have babies that end up in feeding therapy. So she's gonna talk a little bit about what not to do, 'cause that's her thing too. Hey, if You don't do this then this won't happen. And if you do do this, it's very likely that this will happen. So she's gonna share a little bit about what Taste Training is not because there is a lot of confusion about this idea, a lot of misinformation on social media.

Katie Ferraro (4m 12s):

And we see families who mistakenly use the pre feeding time as an opportunity to kind of like jumpstart or force foods on a baby before they're ready. That is not what Taste Training is about. Marsha Dun Klein is the co-founder of the Get Permission Institute. It is a wonderful online resource for professionals who work in the feeding space to learn more about pediatric feeding. She also has great resources for parents there on her website as well. That's at get permission institute.com. Marsha is also a product developer. She's developed this teeth their heart. I use this a lot in pre feeding assessments with babies now to do Taste Training. Marsha's gonna tell you about the teeth or heart, how you can use that for Taste Training, but she's also gonna reinforce this idea that you don't need any special gear or products to help your baby discover flavors in the pre feeding phase even before the ready for Solid Foods.

Katie Ferraro (5m 4s):

So with no further ado, here is Marsha Dun Klein from the Get Permission Institute talking about Taste Training and introducing flavors to babies in the pre feeding space.

Marsha Dunn Klein (5m 19s):

Hey, I'd like to tell you the story of a baby I just met. This baby was six and a half months old and I was gonna support the the mom and dad as they're beginning solids and they said, we're really worried because we've already started and the baby is gagging every single mouthful. And they were just worried. What they were doing is they were giving the baby food from a spoon and it was of some butternut squash yogurt combination and the mom had made it with love and she's giving it to the baby in every mouthful. He is gagging. So I said, huh, first of all, we don't want him to practice gagging every mouthful.

Marsha Dunn Klein (6m 1s):

You know, you and I know gagging is an important activity to protect airways. And it happens occasionally when kids are learning about cells, but it shouldn't be happening. Every single solitary spoonful that she's putting in his mouth, what he's then learning is, I'm not sure I like this process. So I said to her, what would happen if instead of you putting it in his mouth, he got to do it himself? Because we believe that autonomy is a huge part of baby-led feeding. It's a huge part of helping babies transition towards solids, helping them do what they can themselves at the pace they're ready.

Marsha Dunn Klein (6m 43s):

So all we did was put that same food she'd been giving him 'cause she still had some leftover and put it in a bowl. And we used the teether heart, just a little mouthing toy that he could grab a hold of. And we showed him, we showed him dip, dip, dip. And then we pretended we were eating it and we showed him how it worked and we just put the the toy there and if he didn't pick up that teether heart and then put it in his own mouth and had little taste and explored. So I said, so could we try another flavor? How about some mashed bananas? And he started bringing that to his mouth without gagging. And then we started, we gave him a whole piece of apple to suck on and a piece of banana to bring to his mouth.

Marsha Dunn Klein (7m 24s):

And within one mealtime he turned around from, I'm worried about eating and I have to gag every mouthful that you put in my mouth too. I can do this myself, I can do tasting. And it was really a very important lesson in this child didn't need some major therapy because he was stressing and gagging every mouthful. This mom just needed to to breathe and rethink. He gets to put things in his mouth and what a difference it made. So once he was in charge of what he put in his own mouth and she's very excited about Baby-Led Weaning and very excited about making foods and actually watching your series, she got the confidence to know it's not about volumes, it's about him doing it himself and him enjoying it.

Marsha Dunn Klein (8m 11s):

So it was a wonderful story.

Katie Ferraro (8m 13s):

I love the mention that you said that all the mom was doing by spoonfeeding the baby was helping him practice gagging and that she had said. But what she said was, oh, I really wanna do Baby-Led Weaning and I'm gung-ho on Baby-Led Weaning. And she'd heard about that. But then what she was doing was the exact opposite. She was the one forcing the spoon into the baby's mouth. At which point if she had persisted with that, you do kind of pass that threshold where the baby's just going to give up and sit back and be fed and not participate in feeding. So I love that she was able to connect with you early on in the feeding process to learn wait, with Baby-Led Weaning, the baby is the one who does the feeding.

Katie Ferraro (8m 55s):

And that's sometimes easier said than done. I think parents do need direction and instruction and turn the spoon around and here's how you do it. But at the end of the day, it's the baby leading the way, the the autonomy piece that was missing. And I love that you kind of tied that together for her. And how's the baby doing now?

Marsha Dunn Klein (9m 11s):

Fabulously she, everything she's putting in front of him, he thinks it's fun to explore and doing exactly the things that we would expect when you're giving a whole Baby-Led Weaning approach to a variety of solids. So your comment was, some babies just sit back and let the parents do it all and they give up. And so we do see that. But I have to say, Katie, sometimes I see when babies are having uncomfortable experiences over and over and over again, it can turn into worry and fear on their part and that can derail feeding in another direction. So it was nice to meet this mom early on before either of them had developed any kind of too much worry or any kind of bad habits.

Katie Ferraro (9m 51s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back. In today's episode, I wanna cover this idea of Taste Training. And you might give us some other language. It's just a question that I've heard parents ask. I think they might, you know, read an article or hear about it and like, wait a minute, does this mean you know, my baby can start eating foods before they're really ready. And I just, I want to ask what the term, if it does mean anything to you, Taste Training means to you and why is this concept important from your both professional experience as an occupational therapist and a feeding therapist, but also from your personal experience as someone who you help parents a lot with the interpersonal relationship of feeding.

Katie Ferraro (10m 36s):

What is Taste Training and how can it help?

Marsha Dunn Klein (10m 37s):

You know, I don't know if I, I actually think of it as Taste Training. Here's what I think of it as. I think of it as discovery. What flavors or textures do you love? Now we collectively talk a lot about waiting till the child's six months old. Meaning that the child can sit independently, they can use their hands independently and if we put foods and tastes on the tray, they can explore it. And that's I think, very appropriate as children are really learning about actual the process of eating. You and I have talked about discovery is first, what do you love? Mastery of skills of eating, mastery of like how do you chew? And that's what's very important training that's happening with Baby-Led Weaning and then autonomy doing it themselves.

Marsha Dunn Klein (11m 23s):

So those are the three things I think about with with helping babies towards solids. Now in the discovery piece, I think that we don't have to wait until the baby's ready to feed themselves. Baby-Led Weaning strips and solids and pieces at six and a half months to give children the opportunity to discover are there some flavors you like, are there some things that are interesting to you? This is not teaching chewing, this is not getting food in. This is just tiptoeing around opportunities of discovery. So what I mean by this is four and a half months or so, babies are bringing lots of things to their mouths.

Marsha Dunn Klein (12m 7s):

And so one thing we can do is give them lots of textured things to bring to their mouth so their mouth learns about a teeth or heart texture or a mouthing texture learns about a quarter of an apple that they're just sucking on and slobbering on As a teether, I think this tether period is an important time that children can have an introduction, a tiptoe into discovery of flavors without anybody thinking they have to be in a chair and doing it themselves. This is like I'm eating an apple, I'm gonna give you this apple to ser on. I'm eating an apple. You can have a quarter of an apple to s slobber on. This is not eating, this is tasting.

Marsha Dunn Klein (12m 49s):

You could take the mouthing toy, the like a textured little tether heart. I, I like tether hearts 'cause they're just so easy to handle. But you could take a little mouthing toy and rub it on an apple, you could rub it on a cucumber, you could rub it on a pork chop or a corn on the cob. The idea here is introducing flavors and why this is so the baby is discovering and you are discovering what is your child's love? This is so your child figures out, whoa, I love bringing things to my mouth. And there might be flavors. This is so you can learn which of the flavors they wanna bring back to their mouth again. So what you're building in this sort of period of time before eating is ready, before high chairs are ready, before we're even talking about lots of foods that the child could eat from their tray.

Marsha Dunn Klein (13m 40s):

This is just, hey, I'm eating something, I'm gonna rub this on it and I'm gonna let you have flavors of it. This is not about getting a mouthful of oatmeal in their mouth. This isn't, it's not mouth about getting a mouthful of marinara sauce. These are getting the tiniest flavors, like I said, rubbing the toy on something. So there isn't even really any texture on it to start with. It's just a flavor. But you can do lots of flavors or if it was the tiniest, tiniest little smear of the applesauce, you're eating the tiniest little one. It could be a flavor. I'm not talking about this at all as textures because as an occupational therapist, it's, I know there is research out there that says babies deal with flavors first and then textures is a whole nother level of experience.

Marsha Dunn Klein (14m 34s):

So what we're trying to build here is not really a way to sneak in a pile of puree before they're six months old. We're not, this is, we're trying to say, sweetheart, there are flavors out there. You might love them and this is gonna help you build your motivation that food flavors are kind of interesting and that helps you build the foundation of motivation for when they're in the high chair at six and a half months.

Katie Ferraro (14m 56s):

Love it. Okay, now I have to ask a question 'cause you gave some practical ways that parents can introduce their babies to flavors like rubbing it. I know that your tea, their hearts, and we'll talk about those in a second, but you sent me a ton of them. So I always use them, I always make sure they're clean first before you're gonna put in food. If the baby's gonna put it in their mouth, you can dip it. I know it like applesauce or yogurt. Again, the point here is not to sneak a bunch of purees in their stomach to quote unquote make hunger go away. Obviously infant milk is providing a hundred percent of their nutrition at that point. In addition to the tea their heart, if You don't have an implement, what about using your finger or an adult spoon or what are some other practical ways that parents can help their babies explore flavors Before we talk about teethers?

Marsha Dunn Klein (15m 37s):

Yeah, parent fingers. I love it. If I rub my finger on a corn on the cob, right? And I bring it near them and I let the baby grab a hold of my finger. Babies like to bring everything to their mouth at that stage. And then the babies bringing your finger to their mouth. Or you could take their fingers and pat, pat rub it on the green pepper or, or touch the pork chop with it or touch the cucumber something, a pineapple, something with some flavor that the flavor stays on the fingers so they can bring their own fingers to their own mouth. When you pat pat or rub it in a playful kind of game or an inter interactive game that you pat, pat or rub it on the, the, the food, they bring it to their mouth and then you go, oh, pat, pat, pat.

Marsha Dunn Klein (16m 20s):

And then you do it again. So it becomes an interactive, reciprocal kind of game that you two are playing that happens to include flavor that is not accidentally trying to get them to eat a bunch of a puree, right? It's, it's flavors to inspire motivation and it, and these should be not Taste Training as something we do five minutes every day. This is those natural moments in the day that you're eating, they're on your lap, they're nearby and they're showing an interest. And then you're saying, Hey, do you wanna, let's taste this. And I, again, I'm, I'm not thinking of it as sauces to start with. I'm thinking of as just rubs on things.

Katie Ferraro (17m 2s):

And I love this. It's not making a bunch of recipes. This is just something that organically happens. And I know we know that parents tend to overthink things. Don't overthink it. You should be taking a break sitting down having a meal if your baby's engaged. Marsha from the Get Permission Institute is giving you permission to let your baby explore those flavors. And you're mentioning a lot of things about mouthing and talking about four and a half month old babies. I just wanna remind everyone listening that the last interview that Marsha and I did together, that was episode 428, it was called Mouthing Objects. What does this mean about my baby's ability to start Solid Foods? And Marsha, one thing I really remember you remember you saying in that interview was, you know, mouthing is an important precursor. You cannot feed yourself if you cannot bring your hands and objects to your mouth.

Katie Ferraro (17m 44s):

So we, we are ex letting the baby continue to explore mouthing just in a different way with a a little bit of flavor. And would you say this is all part of the pre feeding process?

Marsha Dunn Klein (17m 54s):

It is. And so what you're doing is helping the child understand autonomy. You get to do it yourself and learn the mastery of the skills that when you can sit in the high chair a little bit later from now, you're gonna need to be able to bring your hand to your mouth. And we want you to wanna do that with flavors. So you're giving lots of hand to mouth practice. So what you're learning with the mouthing here is you're learning to master bringing your hands to your mouth because that's so important for when you're sitting in the high chair and you're gonna be doing Baby-Led Weaning with lots of different foods you are learning. What do you discover? What do you love? You're discovering what do you love? And and, and you're mastering the skill of getting it there with autonomy.

Marsha Dunn Klein (18m 35s):

I'm doing it myself. But really remember from when we talked at the last mouthing topic, babies aren't great at bringing things to their mouth. It's different bringing your own finger. That's one kind of skill. It's different bringing mom or dad's finger. That's another kind of skill. It's different bringing a mouthing toy that's short versus one of your mom or dad's utensils that they're currently using or any kind of a baby spoon or any kind of a toy. There are so many things. What I'm saying to you and to parents is what did they bring into their mouth? What do they like bringing into their mouth? Is there a toy or a finger or something? They like it already. So could you make sure it's clean and rub it on some food? And then could it also just begin to have flavor or it could even be dipped in some warm soup broth or dipped in a cold drink it.

Marsha Dunn Klein (19m 24s):

So it's, it's, you can also explore textures. You are looking for what helps them be inspired to bring their fingers or something to their mouth. This is such an important skill for eating that and, and you can practice it, you know, little by little in natural ways before you do the whole cinnamon, the high chair and prepare foods and try Baby-Led Weaning.

Katie Ferraro (19m 48s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break but I'll be right back. So Marsha, you have developed a tool called the Tee their heart that supports babies in the pre feeding phase. This idea of Taste Training. Can you tell us a little bit about how it works and how parents can use it effectively? 'cause I've seen you use it in practice, but I'm like, well she's an occupational therapist and isn't a teether toy like, you know, a medical device and implement that therapists use. And you're really trying, I think to normalize this idea of utilizing teethers in the pre feeding phase. But I don't know that parents know how. So talk us through it.

Marsha Dunn Klein (20m 28s):

First off, I have to say, you don't need to tee their heart to deal with this phase and to support kids in this phase. There are so many ways to help them. And I did develop a teeth heart. It's a sm it's a like a four inch bendable, nice textured little mouthing toy that has texture on it. It has a little, little handle. And most importantly Katie, it's shaped like a heart because I'm looking for making sure that we remember that love connection, enjoyment should be a part of this whole process. So that was part of my motivation in developing it. But it has a little handle on it and I think you're probably gonna put something about it in the, in the, yeah,

Katie Ferraro (21m 7s):

Definitely. I'll put a pictures of it as well as a link to it. And I know you also have a discount code that's Marsha's code if you guys wanna check these out for use either in your practice if you're a therapist or in your home if you're a family.

Marsha Dunn Klein (21m 18s):

Well what I like about the tether heart is that it's easy to hang onto. It has a handle that makes it easy. It is not a therapy tool. I did not invent it as a therapy tool. I have no intention of it being a therapy tool. It's a mouthing toy. I have a new grand baby and she's got four of 'em already just because she likes holding onto 'em and it's fun to put in her mouth and she naturally brings it to her mouth. So it's a, it's a mouthing opportunity that can, babies can be successful. And I'm telling you, babies love it. But I don't want people to think they can't give mouthing opportunities without this because honestly, whatever they're loving putting in your mouth, in their mouth can work. But you know, it's not gonna be a big truck.

Marsha Dunn Klein (21m 59s):

That's hard. It's not gonna be, you know, one of those eight inch big huge mouthing things that's, you know, that's a mouthing experience. But it'll be really awkward to put food on. You know this, this one I'm looking for the kind of smaller toys that the babies can hold comfortably that are kind of close to their hand in size so they're not like eight inches long. 'cause when, when you have an eight inch long spoon and you try to get it to your mouth, it can be an experience, it's an opportunity but it's a little more awkward and you're off often more likely to get it in your ear or your eye. But, but even those experiences, Katie give babies feedback about, oh, bringing this very long spoon that my mom was holding to my face is, is interesting, but I'm having trouble getting it to my mouth.

Marsha Dunn Klein (22m 42s):

But I have to adjust and adjust and adjust and adjust till I get it right. But meanwhile the flavor is what's in inspiring me to do it. So the flavor becomes the motivation to practice these sort of pre Feeding Skills.

Katie Ferraro (22m 57s):

And we've also talked in the past about the importance of maintaining a positive feeding environment, which sometimes is easier said than done because being a parent or a caregiver and raising babies is stressful. Can you talk a little bit about how parents can balance this idea of introducing new flavors but trying to ensure that the experience remains positive? Like maybe give us some examples. I know you, you've told me about babies who are gripping onto the side of their highchair and they're super stressed out. Not shaming the parents in that situation, but like how does that situation arise and what can we do to prevent that and avoid that? So it is a good eating experience for that baby.

Marsha Dunn Klein (23m 33s):

The thing that I wanna say to every parent is, this is your baby's journey and you're gonna, they're gonna enter the world of eating solids at their own pace. It is our job to give lovely, safe and comfortable opportunities for them to discover what do they love and master the skills of eating. But most importantly, if we pay attention to the fact that we want them to be able to do it themselves, we're gonna look through a little different lens. It is not our grownup job to get food in babies. So the little person that I was just telling you about at the beginning of the show that was sitting in a high chair was okay at sitting but not great yet at sitting.

Marsha Dunn Klein (24m 20s):

So if we wanna help them have positive experiences, one of the things we did was we stuck a stuffed animal in the high chair on each side of him to just give him a tiny bit more support as he's exploring. So it was a little easier for him. Katie, you mentioned some babies. I know babies that at six months have been placed in the high chair and are not ready to sit yet and are not ready to have their hands free to explore. And I've seen those babies hang on to the high chair for dear life because they're, they're holding themself up with their hands. That's the appropriate thing to do for that baby when they're just not quite balanced yet. But then their hands are not available to bring things to their own mouth to go at their own pace.

Marsha Dunn Klein (25m 6s):

And I've seen parents in that case think, oh my gosh, I need to be feeding 'em because they're six months old and then trying to put stuff in the baby's mouth that the baby's not quite ready for. So what we're doing at each stage is we're looking for how do we help the baby be the most comfortable doing it themselves? And some days, even as the child's getting good sitting and, and is bringing things through their mouth, some days those foods are not so interesting to them. Some days they are interesting, some days they're interested for five minutes, someday it's a half an hour. I mean they, they, their time and interest, I think a half an hour is a long time, but their time and interest in being in the chair is gonna vary.

Marsha Dunn Klein (25m 49s):

Our job is not to decide they need to sit longer. Our job is not to decide they need to eat more or they must pick this piece of food up. Our job is to offer and give opportunities and follow the child's lead knowing that some days this child is so interested in what you prepared for them, yay. And some days, you know what they're not and you don't know why they're not. It could be they have a messy diaper, it could be they're tired, it could be they're getting sick. It could be it didn't look just right for them today. And we cannot take that personally. We just remind ourselves this isn't the moment, this isn't the day.

Marsha Dunn Klein (26m 29s):

We'll try again tomorrow.

Katie Ferraro (26m 31s):

Alright, what about parents who worry about food allergies or choking when they introduce tastes? Do you have any tips for parents to approach Taste Training, you know, safely and confidently if those are some fears of theirs?

Marsha Dunn Klein (26m 43s):

First of all, anytime we do any food things with kids, anytime they're supervised because babies are trying to get good at this, right? And they need our sturdy guidance, number one. Number two, whenever there's a lot of allergies already in a family, I know you tell people about this all the time, you wanna have a conversation with your pediatrician and have a conversation about sort of how to present those foods in the way that makes those most most sense for this child's genetics. And when I'm talking about tasting here, Katie, I am not talking about hunks and chunks of things that you are gonna joke on. I'm just not even, I'm talking about flavors and the flavors are so different than a mouthful of something that they can choke on.

Marsha Dunn Klein (27m 29s):

When I talk about giving a four and a half five, five and a half month old baby a hunk of apple, I'm talking about a quarter of an apple. I'm talking about a big hunk that acts like a toy that the child doesn't have the teeth, the strength at all to bite off any piece of bite off

Katie Ferraro (27m 46s):

And hurt themselves. That's a great point.

Marsha Dunn Klein (27m 48s):

You know, even if you gave them a piece of celery, I mean there's talk about giving a baby a whole piece of celery as, and that has some value when babies have sore gums for teething, you know, or a whole hunk of of a peeled carrot that's way too big to be able to find a piece in the child's mouth. If at this stage these if food pieces are used, it's only to think of them as a teether and only as a mouthing experience, but not as an eating experience.

Katie Ferraro (28m 19s):

I love that because if mouthing is an important part of the pre feeding process, you can use pieces of food as Mouthing Objects. Like why can't, they don't have to be bland, they don't have to be devoid of flavor. And if it's a food that naturally has a flavor and they're using it to practice bringing objects to their mouth, I agree with you, as long as it's something they're not going to bite off like a solid piece of apple. And that's not an ideal finger food for an older baby who is going to try to chew it. But in that pre feeding phase, they're just exploring with the flavor. And as long as they are supervised, it makes perfect sense.

Marsha Dunn Klein (28m 52s):

And I don't wanna use breakable foods at that stage. If a food is used, it has to be a solid, something that won't break off that you can suck on and slobber on and get flavor, not break off and get a piece.

Katie Ferraro (29m 6s):

Marsha, what do we do for parents who feel really constricted by, you know, quote unquote food rules or they see these things online like, I'm not supposed to start between six months of age or I'm excited to do this, but wait a minute, I don't know if I really am allowed to do this yet. How do we encourage these parents to kind of, you know, for lack of a better term, loosen up so that they can enjoy this learning to eat process with their baby?

Marsha Dunn Klein (29m 29s):

I think when so many parents are out there reading a lot, hearing a lot, there's so many rules, there's social media, it can be really confusing to be a parent starting solids these days. And I hear parents say to me, I keep getting asked, am I gonna do Baby-Led Weaning or am I gonna do purees or am I gonna do spoons? And the social media can be interpreted as I'm not allowed to do anything until six months. There can be so many rules and parents wanna get it right. So I like to say, you know, instead of asking Baby-Led Weaning or purees or spoons or cups or what plates should I buy, instead of asking those questions, I wonder if we could ask, what can I do to help my child discover what they love?

Marsha Dunn Klein (30m 13s):

What can I do to help them with autonomy, self-direction and independence to find out how they can do it themselves? And what can I do to help them master the skills of chewing? Because in order to learn to love a lot of foods and be skilled at chewing, you need a lot of food experiences. So purees is one of those food experiences. Bringing taste to your mouth with a spoon or a teeth or heart could be a food experience that supports what do you love and and mastery of, of utensils. But also if you only do purees, you're never gonna learn how to chew. So we need all of these experiences.

Marsha Dunn Klein (30m 54s):

So I like to support parents in asking maybe those different questions.

Katie Ferraro (30m 59s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back. Marsha, any final thoughts for parents on this whole idea of Taste Training and exploring and discovering with flavors before the baby is really, you know, quote unquote ready to start Solid Foods?

Marsha Dunn Klein (31m 21s):

The family that I talked, talked about at the beginning of the, of this podcast said to me, we, our son showed so much interest in, in when we were eating, he was interested, he was watching it, he was reaching, but I thought I wasn't supposed to do anything with food till six and a half months or six months or sometime when he was in the high chair. And, and he hadn't quite been comfortable in the high chair yet. So she was completely waiting. And one of the things that I like about giving children tasting opportunities for discovery and motivation is that when your child is showing so much interest in that apple you're eating, you could hand it to 'em.

Marsha Dunn Klein (32m 2s):

They can have a flavor. These are tastes, this is not the formal Baby-Led Weaning in a high chair with foods that you prepare and, and 100 Foods in a hundred days. This is not that whole formal story. This is those natural moments that occur before then. So when her baby was interested, I'm so sorry that she felt like she had to wait until the day that she, she and I met to be even comfortable giving him food experiences. There are things that can happen naturally with rubbing fingers and, and teethers on foods to just give flavors beforehand When your baby's showing an interest,

Special Supplies (32m 41s):

Tell us where our audience can go to learn more about your work to support your business. And then I also do want them to look at the tether heart for use in their own families or their feeding practice. So where is that available for sale as well? Okay, so the tea, their heart is available through special supplies. So it's special special supplies.com and I think you'll put it in the notes. Yes, if you use Marsha 20, it'll give you 20% off. And I, because I just don't want them to charge so much for parents and I want it to be cheaper for parents. So that's available for, for all the folks out there. I am the co-founder. I am the co-founder of the Get Permission Institute. It is an online platform for educating predominantly professionals about feeding and when feeding goes wrong. 'cause as an occupational therapist, I, I tend to work with kids who've come to me with feeding challenges, but we, we are expanding more and more options to support parents. So for, for parents who have more selective eaters as kids get older, we do have a dear parent pre-video that some parents are interested in listening to. But those are for older babies, not the babies that you're talking about. So get Permission Institute is www.getpermissioninstitute.com and I think that there's just lots of information about feeding. Well, Marsha, thank you so much. I always appreciate you taking your time to share with our audience and just share your language and your knowledge. And I think you gave a lot of parents permission to go ahead and start with this idea of Taste Training if they're up for it. Thank you so much, Katie. I love sharing ideas with you. I love what you do. I love the way you support so many families and help them just have confidence in this journey towards eating. And so thank you also for all you do. Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Marsha Dunn Klein. I just love her attitude. I love that she's a real life grandma now too, because she's like, oh my gosh, the things that the parents are pressured about these days, it's really overwhelming. She's seeing it with her own son and daughter-in-law. She sees it with the families that she works with, but I think she has just such a beautiful way with words and helping us all feel like a little bit better. Like, let's stop overthinking all this stuff. You wanna give your baby a couple tastes of food before they're really ready? Heck yeah, you go for it. Great resources from Marsha are available on our website. Get permission institute.com. If you would like to check out that Tether Heart. The website is called special supplies.com. I'll link to it in the description as well as the show notes, which you can find at blwpodcast.com/498. But Marsha's affiliate discount code for her tether heart is Marsha 20. So if you go to special supplies.com and you find the tether heart, it's a three pack. They come in a couple of different colors. The code Marsha 20 will get you 20% off. Learn more about her approach@getpermissioninstitute.com, check out some of her books. And I'll also link to more of the interviews that Marsha's done on this podcast because she is, I think the second or third most interviewed person I've had on the show because she just covers such a wide variety of topics. We've talked about mo Mouthing Objects, we've talked about Supporting Your Baby with empathy. We've talked a lot about pre Feeding Skills, so I'll link all of Marsha's other episodes in the description as well. Again, the show notes are at blwpodcast.com/498. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time. Bye now

American Public University (36m 7s):

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