Pre-Feeding Skills: What Can My Baby Do Before Beginning Solid Foods? with Marsha Dunn Klein OTR/L, MEd, FAOTA

0 (1s):

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2 (35s):

And what I always am looking for is what does the child like to put in their mouth? And that finger or that mouthing toy can easily be bridged towards food

3 (46s):

Hey. there. I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietician, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby led weening here on the baby led weening Made Easy podcast I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leaving you with the confidence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby led Weaning. What if there were some things you could do ahead of time to get your baby comfortable with the transition to Solid Foods? Like do you maybe have that type of baby who doesn't like being in their car seat, they don't like being in the stroller? Maybe you're like, ah, what's gonna happen? Will we go to put 'em in the high chair when it's time to start Solid Foods?

3 (1m 28s):

Well it turns out there actually are some things you can do ahead of time to get your baby comfortable. And my guest today is an expert in these Pre Feeding Skills. I'm so excited that Marsha Dunn Klein is back on the podcast today to teach us about Pre, Feeding Skills and all of the things that your baby is doing developmentally before they start Solid Foods. So Marsha Dunn Klein is one of the most influential educators in the infant Feeding space. She's an occupational therapist, a Feeding therapist. She's the co-founder of the Get Permission Institute, which is her online education forum for teaching healthcare professionals and parents about pediatric Feeding challenges. Marsha has seen it all in her decades of work.

3 (2m 7s):

She also is a prolific author having co-authored one of the most important books in pediatric Feeding. I literally reference this like almost every day. She literally wrote the book on Pre Feeding Skills. Her book is called Pre Feeding Skills, a comprehensive resource for mealtime development. And it's basically the textbook for understanding infant Feeding from a developmental standpoint. So there's no person more perfect to talk about Pre Feeding Skills than Marsha Dunn Klein. But she's also the author of another book, her most recent book called Anxious Eaters. Anxious Mealtimes. She's been on the podcast numerous times before because honestly I'll look for like any excuse to interview in chat with Marsha Dunn Klein because she is one of the kindest, most generous Feeding experts out there. And I am so excited that she's here today to talk about Pre Feeding Skills.

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So with no further ado, here is Marsha Dunn Klein.

2 (2m 58s):

Thanks Katie for having me.

3 (3m 0s):

All. right. Today we're gonna be talking about Pre Feeding Skills for babies. But before we get started, could you bring us up to speed? What is it that you've been working on? I know you always have lots of irons in the fire. Which projects are really exciting you right now?

2 (3m 13s):

Wow, so many of your viewers know I'm a pediatric occupational therapist and I work with children who have eating challenges and who've struggled with eating in some way. So in the last year and a half or so, I've been a co-founder for the Get Permission Institute and we are an online education website to offer support for families whose children have eating challenges and for professionals that are working with these children. And so we're offering lots and lots of courses about anxious eaters. We have a whole master course on anxious eaters, a whole master course on tube Feeding. And we have colleagues and friends that are kind of like-minded in terms of thinking about children respectfully from a responsive perspective.

2 (4m 1s):

And they're doing perspective courses with us throughout the year. So we've got lots coming up and Katie is really exciting to be offering this material to live somewhere, to have a website where people can find that information. And

3 (4m 13s):

In previous interviews, Marsha, you've talked and taught us about lots of different topics. I was kind of going back through all the old episodes you've been on. We talked about the whole get permission approach and ideas about how to identify the baby's positive tilt. And you talked about this term that you coined and it's such an important concept of, you know, the more babies I work with, like you just learn how to read them and they're telling you that they wanna eat with their body language. You also came on to talk about sensory aspects about food and kind of, we've talked about staying in our lanes, like what are our roles as a parent, what's the baby's role in Feeding? But today I wanna chat specifically about Pre Feeding Skills. And so as you are the author of the book, Pre Feeding Skills, a comprehensive resource for mealtime development, can you tell us exactly what is meant by the term Pre Feeding Skills, either in your entire field or perhaps as you see it personally and professionally?

2 (5m 3s):

There's a lot that goes on in the body as babies are developing that help them get ready to be oral eaters. I'm gonna, let's specifically talk towards going from breast or bottle towards solids because that's what what you do when you're talking about baby led Weaning, right? But there's a lot of basic developmental skills. Children need to be ready, they need postural growth. They need, as you talk about in baby led Weaning, we want babies to develop up against gravity and be able to sit to have a trunk that allows them to sit upright. And when you are able to sit upright, one of your Pre Feeding Skills that you develop is the ability to bring your hands to your mouth because that's gonna be an important skill in learning how to eat.

2 (5m 45s):

Babies need to learn to move their head in lots of different ways when they're on their tummy, when they're on their back, when they're rolling, when they're sitting, they need really good head control. And that head control comes from developing the, the trunk and the posture underneath the head control. So that's gonna be important. The shoulders are the floor that the head sits on, right? The jaw needs to get developed, be So that the tongue can move in its mouth separately from the jaw. So all of these skills motorically happen in a sequence that help children be ready to eat. Children learn to move their tongue with a, a breast nipple or a bottle nipple in a kind of a, a sucking kind of a way in an up and down kind of way.

2 (6m 29s):

But in order to chew, in order to be able to manage the Solid Foods that are gonna come into your life as baby as you're getting older, babies need to move their tongue out of the middle. So instead of that sucking position that we can imagine babies are doing with their tongue in the middle, they need to move their tongue over to the side and feel the little lump of food and over to the other side and move their tongue all around their mouth. And the way babies learn to do that is by having mouth experiences, Pre, Feeding mouth experiences, you know, Katie, I could talk here a little bit about what baby, how babies get those experiences.

3 (7m 6s):

I'd love to, cuz I know you also have created the teether heart. So you know a lot about the importance of mouthing and I've learned a lot from you about the importance of babies mouthing objects. And maybe you could tell us, you know, how does that play into the skillset that they need in order to eventually be able to feed themselves.

2 (7m 22s):

So if you imagine when a baby's sucking their tongue is right in the middle and they're sucking and swallowing and sucking and swallowing and everything goes right down the middle into the throat. So the skills you need for chewing later on is that you need to be able to move your tongue to the side to push the food over towards your gums and teeth, right? And you need to suck your cheek in so the food doesn't all end up in that little pouch on the side. So your, your tongue and your cheeks are gonna kind of work together while you're doing this up and down movement with your jaw in order to chew. So for children to be able to move their tongue outta the middle, they need experience. They need to have something in their mouths to move towards. So for example, imagine the baby's putting their own finger in their mouth.

2 (8m 3s):

Sometimes it goes in on the side, sometimes it goes in diagonally, sometimes it goes in in the front. Sometimes it's one finger, sometimes it's the whole hand, sometimes it's the back of the fist. We all have watched babies chew on their hands and fingers. Those are amazing. Pre Feeding Skills because the tongue sort of follows where the finger is follows where the fist is and moves out of that middle place that it's so comfortable. So baby's fingers really are their first toy, but then we wanna give children lots of experience melding things. And So I developed a, a mouthing toy called the Teether heart.

2 (8m 43s):

It's very soft and it's in a heart shape. It's got a little handle that makes it pretty easy for babies to hang onto. And it's bumpy, right? It's differently textured. And so babies can hang onto the little handle and play with it in their mouth and suck on it and chew on it, move their tongue towards one side toward the other and get lots of experience and lots of confidence moving their tongue out of the middle. Mine isn't the only mouthing toy out there, there are so many, but my requirement is that they're soft enough that they feel they're bendable and they feel kind of comfortable in a baby's mouth. Not like a hard truck or a really hard plastic toy, but a soft bendable kind of a mouthing toy.

2 (9m 25s):

And some mouthing toys have long projections that can, the baby can push in their mouth in a all the way to the back of their throat. Some have little short projections And so we wanna try to match the shape of that mouthing toy to the baby's mouth. If I gave a four month old a mouthing toy with a very long projection, they might just wanna gag themself accidentally cuz they're not really very good at it first, right? It takes 'em a little while. So, it might be, we use shorter projections at first and then longer ones later. But the important thing is that babies get very comfortable bringing their own fingers to their mouth, bringing their own mouthing toys to their mouth to give themselves their own experiences.

2 (10m 9s):

They do it Katie at their own pace. Right?

3 (10m 12s):

I also love how you use your tea there. I was, I always think of the story we were working with a baby named Baby Alma and the first day baby was sitting up on her own really eager to eat. She was past six months of age. Mom was super excited. We did cantaloupe on the first day. We did some period cantaloupe, we tried to do off of a preloaded spoon, didn't work, tried to do it out of an open cup, wasn't interested, tried to do some soft Solid strips, couldn't care. The only thing this baby wanted to eat was her shoe. So she had this cute little black Mary Jane on, she took it off and put it in her mouth. And I told the mom, I was like, I promise not to film this for Instagram, but can we just try to put some of the period cantaloupe on her shoe because I mean she already had it in her mouth. And mom was like, sure fine, why not? So she actually tried a little bit off her shoe that I took your tea there cause we had just gotten your teeth, their hearts, put some of the puree cantaloupe on it, kind of switched it out, put it in her hands, she brought it right to her mouth.

3 (10m 58s):

She was nodding on it. Was she getting any, you know, nutritive value? Who cares? She was experiencing that taste for the first time. And I thought, gosh, you know, Marsha's always talking about using the teethers to help try some of these puree or blended Foods just to get a taste and to actually see it in action, especially after the baby wouldn't touch anything else. Just made you realize that, you know, there's lots of different ways to skin a cat. But I never thought of utilizing a tether tool as the mealtime even though I heard you say it until I actually saw it myself.

2 (11m 25s):

You know what's so fun is, you know, I believe in responsive Feeding and following the child's cue in following the child's readiness. And you and I talk about all that that all the time because baby led weening is very responsive. It's the baby doing the leading, are doing the guidance and and the safety kind of offering. But they're doing telling you what they're ready for when they're ready for it. And what I always am looking for is what does the child like to put in their mouth? And that finger or that mouthing toy can easily be a bridge towards food. So sometimes I'll take a like a a little baby matte teething bowl. I happen to really like the easy peasy bowls, but we might put some puree in there and a spoon or a teather heart and also some of the baby led Weaning stripped Foods.

2 (12m 15s):

So the child has a variety of things in front of them and I see all the time that babies pick up the mouthing toy or the spoon. Not that they're good at the spoon, but this is another thing they can bring to their mouth. Sometimes they bring the right end, sometimes they bring the wrong end. The most important thing is they're getting to to have taste of this food or even rubbing that spoon or even their finger on a pork chop or sticking it in on a piece of corn on the cob. They're getting flavors. We want them to learn what flavors do you love? What flavors do you wanna bring back into your mouth? And those can be the mouthing pieces and strips that are on the tray.

2 (12m 57s):

They could be a mouthing toy or a spoon. They could be whatever they wanna bring to their mouth of what you offered So that they can learn. I like this flavor, I'm bringing this flavor back in again. I'm bringing this cantaloupe back in again. I like it off of this mouthing toy. And then the next day maybe they're gonna like it without the mouthing toy. Just that little piece you

3 (13m 19s):

Offered. It's just kind of opening their eyes. I always think like, gosh you know, this baby literally has had nothing in their mouth except breast milk or formula for six months of life essentially. And now there's this whole new world opening up of all these other things I can put in my mouth. Some of these things, these adult people call them food, but there are many other tastes to textures and flavors, et cetera. So I love the idea of using the tea there as a bridge to the eating experience. Now Marsha some parents and caregivers, they get really excited about their baby's transition to Solid Foods. We know some of them dread it, but some are like super stoked and they wanna start offering Solid Foods maybe before the baby is really physiologically ready. So do you have any tips for involving the baby in mealtime routine before they're showing the other reliable signs of readiness to eat?

3 (14m 0s):

And obviously we're always concerned about safety, right? We don't want a baby trying to eat a food that they're not capable of doing. But how can we incorporate the baby at the table So that they're used to this, you know, experience even before the time when they're ready to eat?

2 (14m 12s):

You know, it's a great question Katie. I really love involving babies at the table even before we're putting 'em in a highchair and having 'em be ready to eat. So you and I talk a lot about ready to eat probably as a concept, involves being able to sit in a highchair with their arms available to move separately from their trunk so their trunk is good enough sitting that their arms can move separately from their trunk. Because when babies are, you know, just four months old, a lot of times they go to reach for something and their whole body falls apart cause they're just not great, great at using their arms separately from their trunk just yet. But that doesn't mean they can't be at the table sitting on a parent's lap and having a mouthing toy nearby that you rub on something that you're eating.

2 (14m 56s):

And so as they're bringing the mouthing toy to their mouth, they're getting a flavor of something. We're not trying to feed 'em, we're not trying to get food in them. We're just saying, Hey, here's something that you can be playing with. Here's some flavors. And you could be on a parent's lap just to see what's going on. It's a little harder to really learn to eat from your parents' lap when the parents can't see how things are going, right? It's their, their back is to you or maybe they're on on your elbow. So we're not trying to, in that early stage, we're not trying to aim to get food and kids at all. We're just aiming to support them at the table to see visually what other people are doing and begin to sort of practice reaching away from their body and peeking things up.

2 (15m 39s):

And at that stage, oh my gosh, I really do love giving the baby something to to mouth on or let them touch their fingers into the flavors that we're eating just so they just get the experience smells and flavors of what's going on. I also think that before kids are at the table, they really do need experience mouthing. And so many parents, so many of us grownups are sort

3 (16m 3s):

Of not, they don't want them to put anything in their mouth

2 (16m 6s):

They don't want or if they put it in their mouth, they're wiping everything with those antiseptic wipes and who wants to put stuff in their mouth that just tastes and smells like antiseptic wipes all the time. Seriously. So we want PA babies to understand it's okay for me to put things in my mouth and dear sweet parents, I'm gonna be so messy during this time. And messy is how I'm gonna learn about it. Messy is how I'm gonna get the texture of it. Messy is how I'm gonna learn the smell Messy is how I'm gonna figure out which things I wanna put in my mouth and which things I don't. Messy is gonna help me find out what do I love. And that is our reason to present Foods to babies, find out what they love and let them have practiced exploring those Foods.

3 (16m 53s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back

4 (17m 1s):

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4 (17m 41s):

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3 (17m 49s):

And you talked a little bit about high chairs and I know as an occupational therapist obviously we're concerned about safety, but there's many instances where you might have the baby in your lab. We were talking previously before the interview about you know, just eating with babies at restaurants or you're at a family gathering and there's not a high chair. There are certainly situations where you as a parent may feel comfortable holding your baby or the baby may actually need that. What I always talk to parents about is ultimately if you do have a highchair and you want your child to eat from the highchair, we're gonna need to get the baby to a point where they're comfortable sitting in the high chair and if the baby's freaking out and we can't actively be offering food to a baby who's freaking out because of course that's not a very peaceful Feeding environment. But also it's dangerous from a choking risk perspective.

3 (18m 30s):

So I always tell parents that, you know that baby that doesn't like the car seat and doesn't like the stroller, they're not gonna love the high chair at first. And so just like you know, if you're gonna drive anywhere in the car seat, even though they don't love it, you gotta get them in the car seat cuz that's safe for them. They get to a point where they're comfortable with it or they get to a point where they realize, oh, if I'm comfortable in the stroller, then we go on and walk in. I enjoy that with the high chair. You can bring the baby to the table prior to when they're ready to start eating Foods and have them at night chair get them comfortable, give them a tea their toy, give them an open cup, give them something to play with or just be a part of the family meals even if they're not quote unquote ready to eat yet. Would you agree?

2 (19m 7s):

Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, the highchair experience doesn't have to be the first time they've ever been in a highchair in their life is today when you're gonna start giving 'em food, right? They can be in that highchair and play at non meal times too, just here and there. You know, I, I remember sometimes I'd put my child in the highchair with a couple little mouthing toys that I dipped in broth or something while I'm cooking in the kitchen or preparing something just So that they can have the experience of the high chair before the chaos of a whole mealtime. The other thing though is when children are in a high chair and they've already figured out, you know, what you're eating and that food stuff is kind of interesting to me and I kind of like bringing things to my mouth.

2 (19m 47s):

If they've had that experience before they're at the table, you know, maybe when they're just sitting in your lap and you know you're having a a glass of juice and you, you help them bring your their finger and put the juice on their finger, they've learned, oh, I tasted something my mommy was eating that was kind of interesting. Oh now I'm tasting mom's, mom's working on that corner of the cup. Can I lick it? Babies begin to get the experience that what you're putting in your mouth is kind of interesting and I might wanna try it. When they have that experience then mealtimes tasting eating becomes kind of meaningful. So now when they, well you put them in the high chair, they're going, oh wow, I, I kind of wanna explore all this stuff here and I wanna put it in my mouth because so far I've had good experiences doing that, right?

2 (20m 34s):

So then they really wanna be there.

3 (20m 36s):

So Marsha as an occupational therapist, Feeding expert, a Feeding therapist, you've worked with babies of all abilities over the decades and I'm just curious for let's say a neurotypical baby who's maybe four months of age, could you you just share like real high level, what developmental changes can we expect to see between four to six months of age when the baby's body is getting prepared to make this eventual transition, you know, from this totally fluid milk diet to Solid

2 (21m 1s):

Foods as an OTR, I wanna see babies going from really good rolling. I wanna see them going towards being able to sit upright. What I mean by sitting upright is being able to shift their weight forward, reach for things, sit back, sit forward, sit back and kind of do what we call playing in that sitting position. Because that gives 'em lots of practice building confidence in sitting. Because when you're eventually in that high chair, you're gonna lean forward to get something and come back, lean forward and come back. We don't want babies in the highchair just slouched over on the side of one of the arms of the highchair because they can't hold themselves up yet, right? So we want that sitting skill to be well-developed and practiced.

2 (21m 41s):

We want babies to be able to reach a, take their arm, reach it away from their trunk and reach for things and hold things, bang things let go of things. So grasping and letting go are important skills that are developing between four and six months. Being able to reach requires you to shift your weight. So it's gonna challenge your sitting balance a little bit. So the more practice babies have practicing sitting with some support, the supportive grownup or pillows around them sitting and reaching, that's really important. And then, you know, you and I have talked about this so many times, mouthing is such an important skill to prepare the mouth for what's gonna happen.

3 (22m 21s):

Marsha, what about recommending babies to start learning to drink from an open cup? Do you advocate for this practice? Do you have any tips for parents if you do on open cup drinking?

2 (22m 31s):

A lot of parents wanna give spouted cups and because they don't spill as much and what I wanna say is there are benefits from an open cup. And so children are not gonna do well with an open cup until they're very capable of sitting and they're gonna need two hands to hold that open cup and bring it to their mouth. I actually really, I really like using little medicine cups or little tiny, tiny, tiny cups and I open, put a puree in 'em or I dip 'em in a puree kind of like you do with a margarita and salt, right? And so then the baby uses this little, this little baby cup, this tiny cup or even I like the easy peasy tiny cup, but I even before that often use even smaller lighter weight ones.

2 (23m 22s):

And I just use the cup as a melting toy at first. So the baby's gonna bring that cup with the, with the margarita rim of of a puree, right? They're gonna bring it to their mouth and they're gonna put the wrong end of their mouth and the right end into their mouth and they're gonna be messy with it. And I have watched babies over a five day period pick up that little medicine cup with a puree in it and tip it over, do it upside down and not be good at it at all. Make a terrible mess. And then they figure out, but I want that stuff that's in that cup. And pretty soon remarkably they start bringing it to their mouth with the right side up and they, they get better and better So that skill's gonna evolve and the skill of being able to drink from an open cup, hold that liquid in your mouth by tightening up the corners of your lips to direct that liquid into the center of your mouth, that's an important skill.

2 (24m 16s):

That doesn't happen when you're hanging onto a spout, biting on a spout all the time or even with straw drinking. They're just very, very different skills. As an OTR Katie, I really believe that open cups are a really important skill and So I would rather teach children open cups starting with little baby little baby cups and working to bigger cups that they pick up, put down, pick up, put down and get better at. I would rather put purees in it at first cuz they move a little slower or just put some around the rim to start with. And then I would rather help them learn about straw drinking as a next drinking possibility rather than going to the spouted cups that you just bite on and just slurp it in through your gums.

3 (24m 56s):

And we've actually had Don Winkleman S L P who designed the tiny cup for easy-peasy on kind of talking, we talked about six reasons to skip the sippy cup and I would say they kind of marry all of our areas of expertise from an occupational therapy standpoint, a dietician standpoint, certainly the problems about portion sizes in those large cups. And then from an S L P standpoint, all the benefits of open cup drinking as they pertain to eventual speech development like across the board. I think all Feeding experts agree there are certainly benefits to open cup drinking.

2 (25m 24s):

Yes, absolutely. And I think the Katie, I think one of the reasons that parents don't go to open cup drinking is kids are not so good at it at first, but the fact is they're not gonna get good at it unless we give them the experience of it and they get better so much more quickly than we ever imagined.

3 (25m 42s):

A hundred percent. We had a parent who calls it her baby's party trick. She's like, oh my gosh, you practiced for a few weeks and then you whip out the open cup at a party and parents are like, oh my gosh, look at that baby drinking out of an open cup. And Don always reminds us, listen, ultimately the goal is to have the baby drinking out of an open cup by the time they turn one independently, albeit with some spillage. And you mentioned that very important part of allowing the baby to experience the mess. That's a very integral part of the entire sensory experience that is learning how to eat right? If you're learning to drink from an open cup and some of it dribbles down the left side of your mouth and you feel that and you know what that experience is like and you make a slight adjustment baby So that the next time you move the cup a different way. So you don't have that uncomfortable feeling that's how you improve and get better.

3 (26m 25s):

But if we never let the baby drink out of an open cup cuz we're scared about dribbling in messes and spills or they spill and then we go and attack them with a washcloth or a wet wipe, they're not going to have the opportunity to make those adjustments that they need to become the independent eater and parents. and they think, well babies can't do it for themselves. But the remarkable developmental changes that occur between six and 12 months of age, I mean you start with a six month old who has no idea what to do with that cup and on their first birthday they can drink a few ounces no problem out of a cup with minimal amount of spillage. That's amazing. And it's all because they were afforded the opportunity to practice that.

2 (26m 57s):

Yes. and they can not only drink but they can return the cup to the tray. Amazing. But I see so many babies where the parents are only are the ones that are holding the drink at the baby's mouth. And one of the things that happens then is we're doing it for them. We might be giving 'em more than they wanted. We might be giving more than they can handle in their mouth. We are not going at their pace. If they do it to themselves, they go at their pace. Sure the first time they do it they're gonna just dribble it all down their chin. But they will very quickly learn, go slower, go slower. and they get it. But I've met kids at one year and 15 months old that just are not good at all with a cup just because they haven't met cups yet.

3 (27m 37s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back

5 (27m 44s):

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3 (28m 49s):

Yeah, exactly. And I think parents don't realize, gosh you can start earlier, but think about like even in the nicu, like we have babies if for whatever reason they can't be bottle fed, two feedings not working, they actually learn to drink out of an open cup, even from their first few days of life. Like it can certainly happen, we, I mean it's not standard practice certainly, but I think parents don't realize, wow we can start with open cups. Although we're definitely seeing that in the Feeding space. Certainly I would say since the advent of the tiny cup, I had always used little tiny plastic shot glasses. But honestly, you know, the plastic on the baby's gums, not ideal but like I think we're seeing a lot more focus on open cups and at the end of the day, I know as a new parent I just thought the progression was breast or bottle to sippy cup to open cup. I had no idea until I had kids that sippy cups were just invented by parents for parents with the sole goal being to prevent spills, which I get it, if you're out and about or Don always says you're driving around in grandma's Lamborghini and you don't wanna spill the water all over the car.

3 (29m 41s):

Yeah sure get a sippy cup, but like at the end of the day we're practicing at the table with our kids and we can do five minutes of open cup practice. It has benefits that extend beyond nutrition into their physical development, their speech and language development as well.

2 (29m 52s):

Okay. I really like, I like soups and I have a number of recipes for delicious soups that I blend. So as a grownup I sometimes eat these blended soups out of a bread bowl or something else. But they are also great to pour in a little baby's cup So. it could be a compliment to all of the finger Foods that they're practicing with on their tray so they could have a, you know, a red pepper tomato soup or a carrot parsnip soup that's just delicious ginger carrot soup, delicious flavors that become kind of a thick puree that moves slower than liquid and it's also highly nutritious. So we can just have a whole category of delicious tasting Foods to conquer.

3 (30m 34s):

There's a lot of things we could do with to be you. I like to tell parents like, this is not boring. There's a lot of things you can't don don't want you to feel overwhelmed by all the things you quote unquote have to do. But there's so many different ways that you can make mealtimes enjoyable for your baby and for yourself as well. Cuz it's exciting to watch your baby, you know, their eyes light up and realize there's something in that cup, they smell it and they figure out how to tilt their head and you might have to help them guide their little cup to their mouth at the beginning, but they learn so quickly. Had a mom on a parent call earlier today and she was talking about how she just noticed her baby's tongue starting to move from side to side and she's like, she couldn't do that a few weeks ago. And I was like, isn't that so cool? Because of the eating experience, you're paying attention and you're realizing wow, day by day my baby is developing these skills that are gonna help them become an independent eater.

3 (31m 16s):

And her why for doing baby led Weaning as she has a number of nieces and nephews who are very severe picky eaters and she said, don don't wanna pass any judgment on my siblings desires in the way that they raise their kids. But she said, I just don't want to have children who have such pain at mealtime. And she said, that's why I decided to do baby led Weaning. And I thought it was so interesting to see her kind of putting it all together, the benefits of this approach, but also all the small incremental developmental changes that her baby is going through at seven months of age.

2 (31m 43s):

You know, and I, you and I have spoken about this before, but I think our goal ultimately is to invite our children to the table to eat the Foods that grownups eat. And if you want your children to like the Foods that you eat, we wanna offer the children variety we wanna give them. And so when you can, the example I just gave about this soup for example was if I made a blended soup that I loved and the baby could have some of it as a part of what's on their tray, how exciting is that that the baby's eating something that's a grownup food, right? I mean, or you could look at it then I'm eating a baby kind of food since it's a blended food. But you know what I mean? And I'm not trying to go the direction of we need to give babies just purees cuz I'm, I really think there is a, a huge value for babies finger Feeding themselves and using strips and having those experiences.

2 (32m 32s):

Absolutely. And I also am an advocate of when babies, babies need to learn and get good at cups between six and 12 months and, and one of the ways to learn about cups does not have to just be juice or breast milk. I've heard parents say, I don't wanna put breast milk in the cup because my baby will spill it and then it's a waste. I get that that can be, you know, a challenge for some parents. So we don't have to be restricted to think, well I'm only gonna put baby food apple sauce in the cup. It can be anything that you're eating as a family and you can blend it up and it can be a little drink. Right.

3 (33m 3s):

Well Marsha, thank you so much. I love always having the opportunity to converse with you. I'm gonna put all of the links to the different products, your book, the Teething Heart, et cetera, your books rather on the show notes for this episode. But where can our audience go to learn more about your work and the things you're working on with your team and and your area of expertise there in the occupational therapy side of Feeding?

2 (33m 24s):

Oh, thanks for asking Katie So I guess the, the most central place to go would be the get permission Institute dot com. It's our, our education platform and how to get ahold of me is through there. Yeah,

3 (33m 38s):

Won't be on the lookout for, I know you're kind of reconfiguring a lot of your courses that have been offered like don don't know I don person. I've signed up for so many things, like I can't do the whole three days. I wish this was just pre-recorded and then you said, I'm gonna be making all the courses pre-recorded for the other Feeding professionals and parents. I think that's so wonderful. Any kind of timeframe of when those will be available

2 (33m 57s):

Over the next quarter, you're gonna start seeing that. But you know, I, for for parents in the audience who are particularly worried about maybe they're raising a picky eater and they have a number of concerns, we do have a free parent class and it's called Dear Parent, so it's free if you go to the get permission Institute dot com and you look up Dear Parent, you can see it for free and, and it'll, it'll give you some concepts about thinking about your babies eating from their eyes and give you maybe good questions to ask your pediatrician or a Feeding therapist in your area. So it's a course that is, it's free for parents, it's also free for professionals and I have lots of professionals that I know that are offering that course to families as a way to prepare for their first visit.

2 (34m 45s):

If maybe if the first visit is three or four weeks away, it's a way that a parent can have some education in the meantime and it's free So I. Hope that helps.

3 (34m 53s):

Well wonderful. Thank you so much Marsha, it's always a pleasure to chat with you.

2 (34m 57s):

Thanks Katie. Thanks for all you do for so many families and babies.

3 (35m 2s):

Well I hope you guys enjoyed that interview with Marsha Dunn Klein. She is seriously one of my favorite people on the planet. I was telling her I was on the way home from a road trip with my family and we stopped in Tucson for breakfast for an hour and Marsha lives in Tucson but every time we're like coming through, she's the person you have to like plan stuff ahead of time. You can't be like, Hey, I'm here with my seven kids in Tucson, do you wanna hang out? So our o' pair is Dutch and she wanted to go to Cracker Barrel cuz she kept seeing Billboard for Cracker Barrel. I'm like, All, right, fine, we're gonna have your cracker bla experience. So I went to Cracker Barrel for one hour with my seven kids after we'd already been on the road for 20 hours and I was looking around and I was like, oh, let the Solid Cracker Barrel. Like I wonder if I'll see Marsha Doug Clyde here. And I told her that. She's like, why don't you ever call me ahead of time?

3 (35m 43s):

But no don don't eat a Cracker Barrel anyway. There's not a lot of good baby led weening Foods a Cracker Barrel. I can attest. Sorry. Side note, I love Marsha. Doug Clyde. End of the episode. Everything is gonna be linked up on the show notes. BLW podcast.com/two 90. You guys, if you need Teethers, well you need Teethers. If you have a baby, get her Teether Hearts. They're amazing. She put her discount code Marsha 20 in the link there. But if you go to the go to BLW podcast.com/two 90, it'll be there. Also her book, Pre Feeding Skills is like pretty hard to find these days. I'll find you guys an Amazon link and put it up there. But also Anxious Eaters. Anxious Mealtimes is such a wonderful book. And then everything on the get permission Institute dot com website that Marsha touches is amazing and gold.

3 (36m 24s):

So go check it all out and thanks so much for listening and thank you also to our network partner AirWave Media. If you guys like podcasts that feature food and science and things like using your brain, then definitely check out some of the amazing audio experiences. Any other podcasts on AirWave media.com. My baby led weening podcast, Homebase on the internet is at BLW podcast.com and I'll see you next time. Bye now.