Mockingbird High Chair Review with @hello_mockingbird Stephanie Kaplan

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Stephanie Kaplan (3m 31s):

The best products are rooted in a true problem that people have, not a manufacturer problem, but a true problem that people have. And it comes through sometimes the most easy observations of how people move and operate in their home.

Katie Ferraro (3m 43s):

Hey there, I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in Baby-Led Weaning here on the Baby-Led Weaning with Katie Ferraro podcast. I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, giving you the confidence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to Solid Foods using Baby-Led Weaning. Have you ever set up a baby or a kid's product in your following the instructions in the manual and they make no sense? Like did the author of this so-called Assembly Manual actually ever set up this high chair using their own instructions? Or when you get the product set up it has like wonky features that you don't need or that don't work, right?

Katie Ferraro (4m 27s):

I remember the first highchair that I got from my oldest baby. I had no idea what to look for. So I got some fancy European brand that reclines now I know so dumb and unnecessary that actually dramatically increases the risk of choking because babies sit in a highchair to learn how to eat solid food. And if they're in a reclining position that opens their airway dramatically increases the risk of choking. So I was familiar with the Mockingbird stroller and then when I heard that they had a highchair coming to market, I was a little suspect because honestly a lot of times stroller brands, when they decide to make a highchair, they do it as a total afterthought like, we've got you as a customer of our stroller. What can we sell you next? I have to say that that is most certainly not the case with Mockingbird and the Mockingbird High Chair.

Katie Ferraro (5m 11s):

When I first saw this chair and then used it, I was totally blown away by the design and just how creative so many of the features are not only for ease of use and ease of cleaning, but for ultimate safety in Baby-Led Weaning. And on this show we've talked so much about the importance of having an adjustable footrest on your baby's highchair because having your baby's feet resting flat on that solid foot plate helps to stabilize their core and supports a safe swallow. And so many highchair don't have that capability for early eaters. And most brands they, they don't even care because it's not required. But Mockingbird is a totally different story. The Mockingbird Highchair is one of the very few highchair that I absolutely love and recommend strongly for Baby-Led Weaning. It's actually the only highchair without an adjustable seat height that I do recommend.

Katie Ferraro (5m 54s):

And I'll tell you why or you'll hear why in this episode. It's so thoughtfully designed, it's incredibly affordable, but it's really original. So right now, I'm not sure where you're listening to this, but if you're in a position where you can look up either on your phone or your computer, just look up the Mockingbird Highchair so you know what it looks like going into this interview. Just take a look at it. It's super modern, it's stylish, but there are so many important features that will make your life easier but also make starting solid foods safer that you might not notice at first. And my guest today knows all about these features. Her name is Stephanie Kaplan. Stephanie is the VP of product at Mockingbird and she knows all the ins and the outs, the nooks and the crannies of this highchair. But I should point out it does not have nooks and crannies because those are annoying and hard to get food out of and they designed it without the nooks and crannies.

Katie Ferraro (6m 37s):

I use the Mockingbird High Chair almost daily in my infant feeding practice. So I had a lot of questions for Stephanie in the interview. Stephanie's gonna tell us what parents told her about how they're actually using or more appropriately not using their high chair trays. She's gonna spill the beans on why Mockingbird decided to scrap their plans to make a cushion for their highchair. And she's gonna talk about why they decided to totally overhaul the wipe clean silicone strap harness situation. I thought it was perfect and they somehow made it better. Stephanie is a mom of two. She's directly involved with the day-to-day operations of bringing the Mockingbird highchair to families in their homes. I also found out that she's a returned Peace Corps volunteer. So I was a Peace Corps volunteer, I'm a Return Peace Corps volunteer from Nepal. Stephanie was in Burkina Faso where she worked in business development.

Katie Ferraro (7m 19s):

And throughout the course of our conversation I kept noticing that the way she and her team at Mockingbird design their approach to making this high chair better and making the high chair in the first place, it's really, really grassroots. And Stephanie points out that I think as most parents know, the best products are designed to solve a true problem that people have and not a manufactured one that a brand made up. So as you listen to the interview, since I know you guys are in the trenches of feeding your babies every day, I think what Stephanie is saying is going to really resonate with you as well, especially if you're facing down that post Baby-Led Weaning meal mess multiple times a day and you gotta go clean up the highchair. Now I'm a huge fan of this highchair. I'm also an affiliate for the Mockingbird Highchair.

Katie Ferraro (7m 60s):

I cannot recommend it enough if you're considering the Mockingbird Highchair, it's only available on their website at hello Mockingbird.com where you can also get a free early eaters dishware set. That's a $45 value when you buy the Mockingbird High Chair. If you use the Code BabyLed, that's babyled. And with no further ado, I want to bring on Stephanie Kaplan, VP of Product at Mockingbird who's going to talk to us all about the Mockingbird High Chair.

Stephanie Kaplan (8m 30s):

I think the experience of a product is not just solely the experience of using the product, it's the experience from the beginning into the end. And an example of kind of maybe a learning that we were willing to take was we were at the factory where the was being manufactured and we needed to do a bunch of testing. So there were probably a hundred boxes in there and they all needed to be assembled. And so it was all hands on deck. So it was me and our senior director of quality and we decided we were gonna help. So we start cutting open boxes and and began assembling them. And we had just written the instruction manual that was being tested with users in the US And I looked over at her while she was assembling and I noticed that she was doing it a completely different way than the instructions had said.

Stephanie Kaplan (9m 13s):

And I watched her do it. I took out my phone, I started taking pictures 'cause I thought it, it actually looked really easy as she was doing it. We hadn't even gotten feedback yet from the field. And at the end I was like, I think you may have figured out a better way to do this. So I pulled out a box and I started doing it and by the end we, we probably assembled maybe 40 chairs between the two of us and we, I jotted everything down. I took pictures and I sent them off to our product manager who was in the States. I was like, I think you need to redo the instruction manual. Can you do this quickly and do an AB test with users? 'cause we were doing in-field testing and we ended up doing an AB test with users with this like kind of whacked out guide with my pictures in it.

Stephanie Kaplan (9m 55s):

And it ended up getting higher ratings on the assembly portion. And this was, you know, a couple months before we had maybe less before we had to actually print these manuals and go to market and we changed the whole thing. That meant getting an illustrator to re illustrate everything and everybody was so open again because we weren't just focused that the product was great. It was that the whole experience, I wanted a parent to just love it, everything about it from the moment you ordered it all the way through to being set up for your child. And that was the focus of the team. And so we were willing to pivot at the last minute and make a change. And

Katie Ferraro (10m 27s):

Definitely I can imagine as the VP of product, sure it's a pain in the neck to rewrite the entire assembly manual, but it's way easier than like going back to the drawing board on how you actually, you know, assemble the high chair like the actual pieces of the high chair. I'd rather redo the instruction guide and know that the highchair is solid but here's an easier way to put it together. And I do have to say that the entire process, like I set up a lot of high chairs for work and this one I usually ask my husband to help me 'cause I just assume it's gonna be a pain. But even just like unfolding the instructions and I was like oh this is a cinch. Like I can do this by myself with minimal tools, which I also really appreciate and everything you need is in the box. Which is nice 'cause I know parents listening like you order that baby product then just sits on your doorstep or whatever for you.

Katie Ferraro (11m 7s):

Like dreading putting it together. But just the entire process the box itself is beautiful. So kudos to your designer and your illustrator. 'cause the whole process was really easy to put that chair together.

Stephanie Kaplan (11m 16s):

Yeah, the everything from even on the back of the like the nuts and the bolts, if you turn it over it says crack in half. It was so intentional because I remember, you know when you get those things and you're trying to rip the bolts out of the package and you end up trying to pull the plastic off the front and you can't get 'em out and you're digging with your nail. So we intentionally even put like a a divider there to make it easy to fold the pack in half and everything just kind of pops open like a, it's like little Easter eggs of stuff and that all the bolts were the same size so that you couldn't confuse them and put the wrong one somewhere else. Everything I promised you was so well thought out and well intentioned and

Katie Ferraro (11m 51s):

I'm sorry that you had to put 20 highchairs together at once. But that's a really good way to get your own product because I also know most parents have had that experience of you're putting together some sort of juvenile product and you are wondering to yourself, did the person who write these instructions have they ever actually touched this product? Did they put it together? Did they ever have a child? Like a lot of the stuff in the baby space, it's not intentional at all. And so kinda leads me to my next question. The Mockingbird Highchairs adjustable footrest is really a standout feature. Can you share the thought process behind creating a footrest that's tool free as far as adjustment goes? And then why did you guys decide to do that? Because you didn't have to. And a lot of major brands do not take the effort, the time, the money and the consideration to put an adjustable foot rest in even though every feeding expert will tell you it's so important for safety because it's not required.

Katie Ferraro (12m 37s):

Nah, I don't have to do it, I'm not going to. Mockingbird went a different route. Why

Stephanie Kaplan (12m 41s):

Mockingbird prides itself on rooting our products and innovations in the parenting experience. And not just the parenting experience but also like what are the expectations of experts in the field as well? So like trying not to scare parents but offering them the things that they need. And so one of the common refrains that parents are told about that we hear and commonly are, are frankly misunderstood when we took, when we interviewed parents was 90, 90, 90, the concept of 90, 90 90. We constantly heard this refrain. There was no way we were gonna make a high chair that wasn't gonna have an adjustable footrest based on all the experts that we spoke to, to the parents that we spoke to. It was, it was a no brainer. But where we wanted to innovate was how do you make that easy so that when they have their child grows they have to adjust it because who wants to go dig the hex key wrench outta, I don't know, some drawer that they have and they probably lost it to adjust this item, right?

Stephanie Kaplan (13m 34s):

Because you're adjusting it, I mean multiple times during a child's lifespan sitting in the, in the seat itself and then ultimately it becomes a a child chair. And so we wanted to make what is true like a pivotal and frankly like stressful experience if you're trying to do this on the fly as easy as possible.

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Katie Ferraro (15m 38s):

I wanna hear more about what the parents said in the interviews is I can imagine, first of all, if you've never had a baby or fed a baby in a high chair, it's sometimes hard to know what you want. And I remember like for my oldest, when it came time to choose a high chair, I bought that. Like I just assumed that if it was more expensive it was safer and better. I bought that ridiculous expensive Flo brand high chair that reclines, which is so asinine because now as a feeding expert I know like the importance of your baby's back being flat and when a chair reclines it opens up their airway dramatically increasing the risk of choking. It's why we don't feed a baby in a stroller or feed a baby in a rear facing car seat. But like I didn't know what I was looking for. So when you're talking to parents, I feel like first time parents say like, oh I want something that's easy to clean up. And I'm like mm yeah, sure.

Katie Ferraro (16m 18s):

It's like actually not the most important thing but I can tell from your design that the cleanup really was important And I love the wipe clean silicone straps. I think they are a game changer for parents on the Mockingbird High chair. Can you talk a little bit about that innovation and then how did you address like the common cleanup frustrations in your design process?

Stephanie Kaplan (16m 36s):

Frankly, this is probably one of the innovations I think I'm mo I think the whole team would argue they're most proud of there is this okay doing extensive parent interviews and it's not talking to parents and them saying I want silicone straps, right? What they're saying is that, and again it's removing the barriers of parents buying your product and offering them the right things, right? So don't have them choose this other thing because they might be prioritizing something else. Get, try as hard as you can to give them everything in one. And the number one frustration amongst all parents universally felt is this frustration about cleaning up the mess. And it, it's messy. And I think the best innovations oftentimes are the simplest and they're rooted in an experience that parents are having at mealtime. It's the kind of thing you don't even have to explain.

Stephanie Kaplan (17m 17s):

It's like people see the straps, they're like, oh my gosh, you've done it, you've solved a problem for me because it's, it's incredibly universal. They get crusty and dirty and gross and what ends up happening, parents don't use them because they're crusty and dirty and gross and kids don't wanna have them on 'cause they're crusty and dirty and gross. And so it, it was simple because it solved a problem. It's kind of an easy no-brainer thing and it doesn't have to be complicated. Like you don't need complex reclining and buttons and dah dah dah to be able to solve a really simple problem that parents have. And I think that's what makes Mockingbird Mockingbird is that we listen, we hear you and we provide like really simple innovations that that you just get,

Katie Ferraro (17m 57s):

I feel like that's actually true and a lot of brands claim that that's what they put into their highchair and like there's one high chair that's much more expensive than the Mockingbird high chair and the crotch strap has this like fabric cover over it. So like the way that they went about like protecting the strap was to put another thing that you can't remove and wash easily. I was like that's the opposite. You just made the problem worse. You now made two things where the food can get caught after the meal. But it's true. When I saw the silicone straps at the A BC kit show, I was like, this is genius. Like this is the answer now you guys just made the straps even better with the release of the magnetic harness. So talk a little bit about that because I, I wouldn't have said like I thought your harness was fantastic and I could do it with one hand and it's way better than most things out there.

Katie Ferraro (18m 40s):

But like why did you go and make it magnetic because that, that's like improvement upon improvement I would say. Yeah. Just curious how that came to happen.

Stephanie Kaplan (18m 47s):

Yeah, I mean I'll say you know, never rest on your laurels and when, when consumers are telling you they're having difficulty with with buckling or, but I think we're a company that can be agile and I think it, it definitely didn't live up to what we wanted it to live up to and I think we tested it in the field prior but we knew we could do better. And again, buckling again thinking about the parent experience, imagine your kids crying, they're upset, they're arching their back, they ha whatever they're having a bad day and how e you know, how easy it is to get them in the harness and to get them buckled can be life changing for a parent you're like boom, boom, boom, it's all done for you. And I think we knew we could do better and so we wanted to to do better even if it was only a year out in the marketplace with our, our product, we knew we could do better.

Stephanie Kaplan (19m 30s):

And I think that's kind of part of who we are too is we genuinely are listening. Like we have meetings every week, all the feedback that comes through our CX team comes to our product team, we meet about it, we talk about it, we, we log it and we decide are we gonna action on this? Are we gonna wait and see what more insights come from it? And so I think that's just part of our team is that we wanna, you know, continue to, to collect insights from people

Katie Ferraro (19m 53s):

And I think with a smaller brand as your company is, you can move faster. Like there's another highchair took them over 50 years to fix the straps on their highchair. You know like it's kind of cool that you're like hey this is what you know, parents' needs for highchair don't change like overnight. But there certainly are concerns or as products, you know, evolve and materials become more affordable or easier to source something like magnetic straps that are still exactly gonna restrain the baby in a safe manner but make it easier for the parent to get them out when needed to. Like that's really awesome. 'cause you know the straps are kinda a point of contention where like a lot of times we go back and forth with the brands, the brands will say, oh when you're filming that you have to have the straps on the baby. And I say listen for a six month old baby who's just starting solid foods, they're not going anywhere. They're not climbing, they're not crawling.

Katie Ferraro (20m 33s):

If you have the the proper, the baby restraint, they're not gonna fall out. I mean I get it, your lawyers want me to put the straps on them, but really, you know, early on when starting solid foods your baby is at higher risk of choking if they do choke, you know, you don't wanna be fumbling with a harness that You don't know how to use if you need to extract them in order to to do CPR. But you've kind of solved the problem like well now you can have the baby in the straps because it's so easy to get them out if you need to. Like I, I love that it's like you're kind of getting the best of both worlds like the safety standpoint but also the ease of use which is, you're right, a lot of parents just don't use the straps 'cause they're a pain in the neck.

Stephanie Kaplan (21m 4s):

Yeah, I think that's what we learned. Like you said, we would never tell anyone to use our hydrair without the straps. But it and it all goes kind of back to that core idea of like easy to clean. Like an interesting insight that we learned when we did testing is this kind like you talked about this fabric around the buckle is, and we get asked for this on occasion, but again we're a brand that wants to sell you what you need, not what you don't need or what you are asking for and and you don't know why you're asking for it maybe which was a cushion. When we did testing we did, we really designed the seat with early eaters in mind. We tested with a ton of young babies and it really was really designed, you know, you have to flex one way or another and we flex more towards like those first moments in the chair.

Stephanie Kaplan (21m 46s):

And what we saw in the way that the ergonomics of the chair and remodeled the whole chair testing with younger babies was that there really wasn't a need for a cushion. And first time parents were like, I need a cushion, my baby's uncomfortable. And we're like, you're never gonna use it like as a, as a second, you know, two kids it got thrown away.

Katie Ferraro (22m 3s):

It's one more thing to watch. Like if you like doing laundry then yeah sure get a cushion. Yeah

Stephanie Kaplan (22m 7s):

And we got rid and we got rid of it and we get asked for it all the time and at the moment we have no plans to introduce it because it's more just saying like we know that you think you need it. But truthfully all of our testing showed us that it really wasn't necessary and frankly got in the way of like proper seating position, et cetera. It creates a mess and everything is about being easy to clean. And so we didn't add it and and made like the harness incredibly easy to remove, you know, everything is easy, you can throw it in your dishwasher, you can throw it in your washing machine. So it was like very, very intentional and based off all of the user testing that we did in the field where we're like, oh gosh, look at this. We thought we needed a cushion. We were designing a cushion, legitimately designing a cushion until we saw it being used in the field. We're like nope, don't need it.

Stephanie Kaplan (22m 48s):

And we and we scrap that project in lieu of other more important things. So

Katie Ferraro (22m 52s):

I agree if I think if it's not developmental like why have it, it's just, I mean it's icing on the cake if you care what that looks like but it's literally just more laundry to do. Now I have a very short kind of punch list for parents when they're looking for a highchair as far as things that are gonna help support your baby's ability to feed themselves from their first bites. 'cause that's what Baby-Led Weaning is all about and one of them is the ability to remove the tray and safely pull the highchair up to the table so that the baby can join the family from their first bites like that very quickly narrows down the number of high chairs on the market and the Mockingbird high chair, I love it 'cause it comes standard with the tray so you don't have to buy the tray separately but you can remove the tray and still because of the design pull that baby right up to the table.

Katie Ferraro (23m 33s):

How did you design that feature in order to prioritize safety and inclusivity at the table?

Stephanie Kaplan (23m 39s):

We knew from the beginning we wanted a product that could accommodate as many ways in which families enjoy mealtime and obviously especially because Baby-Led Weaning, it continues to become one of the more popular means of which to teach your baby. It was about having your baby join you at the table and feel like a part of the family and not be like pushed away if that was how you so chose to, to have your mealtime. And so we looked at you know, average types of tables, we looked at the way you designed the belly bar, we looked at all of that, tested again in multiple, multiple homes in different, you know height tables can be different, can be different in every home. And made sure that not only could it push up to the table that the distance from the table was appropriate for the smallest infants but also that when it had a tray on there, if that was how you wanted to feed that you could do it that way.

Stephanie Kaplan (24m 22s):

And we even include, I think you should probably see it hidden in there because a lot of people think it goes on top of the tray. It doesn't, there is a silicone place mat that comes free, it's like a little Easter egg inside of our box and intentionally that was designed for when you decide not to use the tray. So if you push up to the table you have a FDA approved like silicone place mat that smacks on the table where you can feed your child on like a nice clean surface so maybe you're not like smearing their food on your nice kitchen table. And we did that intentionally for the idea of when you want your child to join you at the table, just giving parents every opportunity to have the experience they want in whichever way they want.

Katie Ferraro (24m 59s):

I wanna ask you about the hooks on the back of the highchair where you store the straps when you're cleaning up. Like that's such a small detail but it's every single day, multiple times a day when you put those straps on the hook you're like dude this is such a smart idea. Like who came up with that? I hope that person got a major raise because it's, it's just genius. It's so little but it's so important. The straps are always like all over the place when you're trying to clean up but not if there's hooks for them to hang on which are not ugly or massive. They're just like, you don't even really notice them except every day when you're using them.

Stephanie Kaplan (25m 28s):

Yeah. Oh I love that. I love that so much. I'm sure the team would love, love would love to hear that the best products are rooted in, in a true problem that people have. Not a manufacturer problem but a true problem that people have And it comes through sometimes the most easy observations of how people move and operate in their home. And so the the idea behind the hooks and it's so funny 'cause they originally weren't silicone, they were plastic and we changed them and I'm so glad that we did like how the design pops on the back and it's easy to remove and clean if you need to but it really is rooted in like the simplest, you know, observation of oh look at that person like pulling those, the harness from behind their child and to think like anybody could have done it. It's not like it, you know, and not to say we weren't creative but it's not like it's the most wild insane solution.

Stephanie Kaplan (26m 10s):

But again it's those little touches where a parent would say, like you said, you're like gosh that was nice that that's there. And that's to me that's a sign of like wow we really did our job well that like we're not getting in the way of somebody and we're making them smile at the thoughtfulness. You know

Katie Ferraro (26m 25s):

One thing I noticed, I talked to a lot of brands about their highchair and I've mentioned this to you before but a lot of times when a brand that's known for strollers goes and makes a highchair, it's a total afterthought. They put actually absolutely no time into it and oftentimes those are actually the worst highchair. So some of the most expensive, most unsafe, completely impractical highchair. So I was pleasantly surprised when I saw the Mockingbird Highchair 'cause I'm like wait a minute, this is a very thoughtfully designed highchair from a stroller brand. Like and again I know you're much more than a stroller brand but to me as a parent I had only known Mockingbird strollers so I was like wait, they have a high chair too. Lemme check this out. What I loved about it is so many brands will talk about oh the tray, you can clean the tray, you can put the tray, the dishwasher. Yeah who freaking cares. That's like 5% of what actually gets messy when a baby's eating.

Katie Ferraro (27m 5s):

The ability to just quickly release the bucket seat from the frame and then take that and wash it in the sink, like that is genius. Like every day you're almost borderline disassembling the high chair and that sounds like a lot but it's not like it's easier to take it off and bring it over to the sink and clean it and dry it there then to have it sit there and never clean it or give up on using that chair because you know there's food all over it. So I love that the tray is so easy to clean but then the seat part, which is where most of the food ends up anyway, is also extremely easy to clean. Was that part of the original design or did you guys iterate to get there?

Stephanie Kaplan (27m 38s):

It was part of the original design. We wanted this concept of conversion. So conversion from and even multiple children like going back and forth like this idea of conversion between the infant kind of formation to the toddler formation being so easy, just absolute as easy as possible. And gosh the that chair snapping onto those little pills on the side, the amount of engineering that went into like making that happen and making it so easy and safe and and functional was way more enormous than it looks, which is, that's the beauty is like the best products look so simple and yet the most simple products are the most complex design. And so it was fully intentional like how do I get it out? How do I clean it even so much as like the little gripper at the bottom to release the bottom of the belly bar so that you could lift it up and brush the seed out if you wanted to.

Stephanie Kaplan (28m 26s):

Like you didn't want anything in the way of you brushing stuff out of it. Like you can just squeeze that little pinch, that little piece and and it'll rotate up just a little bit so you can brush it out again entirely intentional and all based on this like key value proposition amongst so many of making it as easy to clean as possible. And even the tray, there are some trays that are notorious, you wanna spray them in the, in your sink and they spray water back at you. You basically took a bath trying to clean your tray. But what truthfully what we notice with parents is they don't remove their tray. Every parent would like they would, every time we would interview them they would kind of put their head down and go yeah I just wipe it with a wet cloth. And I'm like great, good for you, amazing.

Stephanie Kaplan (29m 6s):

Whatever you wanna do. They actually didn't really take the tray off. That's what we learned in all of our research. But as easy to clean as possible because that's what you know that you're a hundred percent right. They sit on it, they squish it, it's insanity and you just wanna be able to like spray it off and not get a bath yourself.

Katie Ferraro (29m 24s):

I also wanna talk about the price of the high chair 'cause I remember the first time I saw it I was like oh this is like bougie baby brand makes a $500 highchair. And I was shocked when I saw how affordable the highchair was because affordability without compromising quality in baby products, it is really rare. Like brands talk of blue streak but they don't mean it. And I feel like when I felt your high chair used it I'm like wow, quality. And then I saw the price, I was like whoa, seriously. Like really? What challenges did you guys have in making the Mockingbird Chair accessible while also maintaining high standards in production and the value of it?

Stephanie Kaplan (29m 56s):

Yeah, I mean you know from the founding of the company, like before I got there we were founded on this concept of bringing like a luxury product at an accessible price point. It's kind of a cornerstone of the brand. So that was a a no brainer as we started designing it because you don't want people to like the stakes are high. Like people are preying on fear. If you don't buy this really expensive product, that's it. Your baby's not gonna get into Harvard or whatever people wanna say. And so we really are founded in this idea of a premium product at an affordable price that you get those features that you think you, that everybody should be getting right. Those features that really help. And so we worked, you know, closely with our engineering team and manufacturing partners, that's what it takes is like from the beginning you're targeting a particular price point and then you're kind of designing around that, you know, how do you balance both the need to keep cost affordable and deliver the must have features that, you know, our customers expect from us at this point.

Stephanie Kaplan (30m 45s):

Like our stroller kind of embodies that same concept of like, hey you, you thought you had to spend $1,500, well you don't, you know we can give you exactly what you need for a price point that doesn't make you go nuts. And then we and you know the we delivered on it, one of the hardest things was the wood solid FSE certified Beachwood legs. That's probably one of the most expensive parts of that chair. And not only are they solid Beachwood legs and FSE certified wood but it is the assembly is if, I mean it doesn't matter to the customer, all they see is this beautiful y shaped design that was so thoughtfully done by the design team that worked on it. But it is truly artistic the way it's put together. It's wood tendon joints, like high-end furniture.

Stephanie Kaplan (31m 27s):

I mean it really is incredible. And we found an amazing partner and we were able to kind of pack it all in and and hit a price point that that works. So it was a lot of intentional work from the beginning.

Katie Ferraro (31m 37s):

Hey we're gonna take a quick break but I'll be right back.

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Katie Ferraro (32m 16s):

I like that you mentioned like there's the must haves and I do think a lot of highchair brands, they stop there. Like I absolutely have to have this from a safety standpoint in order to bring it to market. And then here's the price point that I picked and there's just like this weird gap in between. You're like that high chair is not worth that much money but for your chair, talk a little bit about the safety stuff 'cause I don't think parents really realize what goes into testing and how does the Mockingbird high chair chair stand out in terms of stability and the harness security and overall safety. 'cause that's just assumed now for where we're at in like the juvenile product space and those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. Like it wasn't always that way but like what are the things that we don't see in the highchair that are actually making it safe?

Stephanie Kaplan (32m 55s):

Oh gosh. I mean we wanted to make sure we focus on the important areas for safety and concern for parents. So that comes down to material choice and then also testing protocols. So for material choice you're talking about BPA non-toxic surfaces, especially with plastics, FSE certified Beachwood legs, that was really important. And then there is a standard testing protocol. So I'm sure you're familiar with like an A STM. The specific one is F 4 0 4, so that's for highchair. So there is a testing protocol that we not only choose to meet but we also choose to exceed on every single parameter by plus 10% if not more. And so in kind of collaboration with our quality director and our engineering team, we set standards not only that exist within the highchair standard but even going above and beyond.

Katie Ferraro (33m 40s):

So you mentioned the families who would kind of begrudgingly admit that they're not taking the tray off and actually washing it in the sink and that's totally fine if you don't want to. What were some other things that you found? 'cause it sounds like you did a lot of, you know, focus grouping and talking to parents and the development and continue to do with the utilization of the highchair. What were some other surprising things about highchair use that you found out through that sort of research?

Stephanie Kaplan (34m 1s):

My product manager, her name's Lauren, she and I started setting up like fit parties. So we, we got connected to different moms groups. You know you have like kids at a certain age and we went to like different apartments. We would cater like snacks and drinks and there would be like 20 kids in this apartment playing and one by one we would fit them into the high chair and we would talk to the parents about how they use it. And I think like one of the things we learned, I think we talked a little bit about the adjustable footrest. We actually went from three settings on the adjustable footrest to four based on those fit parties we're like, oh my gosh, look at this. We have this weird in between. We actually changed the depth of the seat because of those fit parties. So like some of it was actual like design modifications that happen when you were able to get everyone from like a six month old or even some, they kept trying to put like four months old, month old in the chair and all the way up to like toddlers.

Stephanie Kaplan (34m 52s):

The big one I think I already spoke about it was we eliminated the cushion. Not only because we noticed it didn't work but because of the parents, especially of second children were like, oh my god, I hated that thing and I never used it. So those were insights definitely like buckling was an interesting one. How they adjusted the buckles. We learned a lot about, I mean the tray was an interesting one that people didn't take the tray off when they put their child in. So we were thinking about that experience and what that might be like just watching their behavior.

Katie Ferraro (35m 17s):

We have a lot of families who like, I can't find the tray at my Mockingbird high chair because if they have a regular table, high high chair, it's what, 29 inch high chair. They're like, this just pulls right up to the table. But if you have a counter height or a bar height higher table, your height chair is not gonna reach up that high. You do need the tray or if you wanna take it outside. And that's something to think about. 'cause I sometimes, we live in San Diego and we eat outside a lot and I'll take my, take my Mockingbird outside. But now that I know about the wood, maybe I shouldn't take it out and leave it out outside for

Stephanie Kaplan (35m 41s):

The lot if I wouldn't leave it outside. I mean it's beautiful, solid wood and it is as sealed as it can be. But like any piece of truly solid wood furniture, I would argue don't hose it down. If you do, you should dry it really quickly. And someone, I remember somebody put it in grass like on a birthday party and left it there. And that again, for solid wood, we actually made an update and sealed the base of the, like the total bottom of the wood, like to try and avoid any porous openings for water. But it can be outside. I mean it can be outside. I wouldn't leave it out in the rain. Again, it's, it's solid wood. Just like any beautiful piece of solid wood furniture that you might not wanna leave outside for too long. But

Katie Ferraro (36m 17s):

Okay, I love that it only comes in one color because I don't like decisions. Like you have one high chair and you do it very well, but do you have any plans to release it in other colors?

Stephanie Kaplan (36m 25s):

It's a good question. We might be working on that.

Katie Ferraro (36m 29s):

Okay. I like the one color. I'm just saying it's like a very modern looking high chair. It's like the nicest looking piece of furniture in my house. So if

Stephanie Kaplan (36m 35s):

You could have one color, what would that

Katie Ferraro (36m 37s):

Color, I mean I know you're gonna do gray because that's what parents love right now I have seven kids and I have a set of quadruplets and when they were born I was like so freaked out that we were gonna like confuse them. They each got a different color car seat, which I bought off of Craigslist, which I now know you're not supposed to do that. But that was their color. And so then when we moved into highchair, we got highchair and I was already doing Baby-Led Weaning by then and they all got a different colored highchair. And the brand has since got rid of every fun high color. Like I totally get it. You can't carry all those skews. I really do like different colored stuff. I love to see like an orange chair, a pink chair, a green chair in every brand's like black, white, gray. But I, I totally get it from a business standpoint.

Stephanie Kaplan (37m 14s):

Yeah, no, I mean we definitely hear this from customers all the time. Black and like a beautiful deep dark wood kinda looking at inspiration from people's kitchens and stuff like that. So not entirely outta the question. Okay.

Katie Ferraro (37m 26s):

All right. So we're talking a little bit about Baby-Led Weaning and it's growing in popularity, it's growing in, you know, a lot of research and evidence that supports it as a safe and effective way to start Solid Foods. How does the Mockingbird High Chair support this feeding approach? And then what sort of feedback have you gotten from families who use it for Baby-Led Weaning? Because I know what I'm hearing from families 'cause I recommend that chair, but like what do parents tell you if they're taking this approach when they use your high chair?

Stephanie Kaplan (37m 50s):

Yeah, I mean obviously we spoke to a lot of feeding experts and, and I already talked about a lot of parents as well. We did speak to a lot of feeding experts early on to help guide us and that's again, you know, when you think about like we call them value propositions for a product and one of the value propositions like kind of led to this like experience. And so that's where a lot of the prioritization of like the way the seat was sized, again for proper, for as many size children as you can for proper posture, et cetera, the depth of the seat was incredibly important for 90 90, 90 on the earliest eaters. You're talking like your six month olds Footrest placement, like I said, was incredibly important. And again, it's an investment, right? Like having an adjustable footrest is a monetary investment to the product.

Stephanie Kaplan (38m 30s):

But we knew it would be important and frankly essential. And we didn't just want the like flip it one way, flip it the other look, there you

Katie Ferraro (38m 36s):

Go. That's not truly adjustable when there's a four inch gap. Like babies don't grow in four inch increments.

Stephanie Kaplan (38m 41s):

Exactly. And the ability to have the tray in multiple positions. So as you know, there's one, two and three. So further out, further in again having as much adjustability as we could have while also keeping it as simple for the parent as possible, purposely building it to pull up right to the table again. 'cause that's general, at least my experience generally how a lot of parents who do Baby-Led Weaning operate. And so we wanted that to be part of their mealtime removable tray liner because it's a mess. I mean it's a mess no matter what you're feeding your kid, but it's just a mess. So again, it's like those thoughtful touches of like how do you quickly sort of do that? And you know, the one touch buckle, like even in testing actually, even though we obviously we've replaced it with an even better buckle. So many of the parents, many of them I remember there was one woman who had a child, she's also a nanny.

Stephanie Kaplan (39m 25s):

She's like, oh my god, I love this 'cause when I press the button it explodes. Do you notice that? Like the two buckles kind of explode out and that was intentional, like boom, you're open, you're unlocked, you're

Katie Ferraro (39m 34s):

Outta here, meal's done, congratulations.

Stephanie Kaplan (39m 36s):

Yeah, so pull your, and so you can pull your child out. And so, so much of that was again, designed with that experience in mind.

Katie Ferraro (39m 43s):

I didn't realize that you called it the belly bar because I just called it the baby jail, but that's not very, you know, I guess I,

Stephanie Kaplan (39m 49s):

I have multiple names like, but

Katie Ferraro (39m 50s):

I really like it. Like that makes, that's a better name than baby jail.

Stephanie Kaplan (39m 54s):

Yeah, crotch restraint sounds less. Yeah,

Katie Ferraro (39m 56s):

I know, right?

Stephanie Kaplan (39m 57s):

There's probably multiple names we have, but I think belly bars one we use most often.

Katie Ferraro (40m 1s):

So I know right now, again, I like less decisions. Your high chair is available for sale only on your website. Will that continue or will the Mockingbird highchair be available at other retailers online or in stores?

Stephanie Kaplan (40m 11s):

No, I mean we, we have our stroller in Target and as far as I know, no intention right now of selling in Target. It's definitely on our website. We also, we sell kind of through Babylist. So Babylist is an exclusive partner of ours, so you can purchase the highchair through there. But yeah, we don't sell our highchairs there or any other site you've been, I wish

Katie Ferraro (40m 28s):

You would sell at Target successful. All the high chairs at Target suck. Like you, you really should. I, you know, we launch. No, you really should be there because honestly I said that it's no joke,

Stephanie Kaplan (40m 37s):

It would stand out. I, I remember when we were, when we were designing, I was like, you know, gosh, this would stand out in a sea of kind of, you know, what's existing at Target, but at the moment there's, there's no plan on that. But I do think it would do well if people could physically see the product and touch it.

Katie Ferraro (40m 51s):

Well also, like you got them, you know, they got into your brand because of your stroller. The next progression is to buy the high. And I do sometimes we get pushback from parents. Like, I'm not gonna drop $200 on a hs. Like, okay, what stroller do you have? Okay, well that stroller costs $1,500. Are you using that stroller three times a day at the six month mark? No. Why don't you sell it on a used marketplace and take the $200 you get for it to actually invest in a seat that will grow with you. And you talked a little bit about the, you know, the, the adjustable height chair foot rest that some other brands have that only flips upside down and it makes two different height chair heights that are four inches apart from each other. That that's, that's not a grow with me high chair yet. They call it that. Or they'll have a, this is a five in one, this is a nine in one. It's like, dude, you just need a one in one. You need a high chair that's a high chair.

Katie Ferraro (41m 32s):

However yours does, it does convert to a toddler chair or a big kid chair. And, and I have to say, this is where my expertise ends because I teach Baby-Led Weaning, our core audience is six to 12 months of age. We're getting those parents to a point where, you know, they're starting solid foods at six months of age where a hundred percent of that baby's nutrition is coming from infant milk. And by the 12 month mark we've got them to the point where most of their nutrition is coming from food and then they move on. So when I'm feeding babies at my house, like they don't, maybe sometimes they come back as toddlers, but I'm not using it as a toddler chair. Could you share why that is an important consideration and how families are continuing to use this chair even beyond the Baby-Led Weaning phase?

Stephanie Kaplan (42m 11s):

Yeah, I mean I think you talked about like, you know, people are hesitant to invest so much money. It's like, well you're gonna end up buying like, okay, you have your high chair, then you have a booster seat and you know, inevitably what we learned is, and you know this having had children, is that eventually they're like, get me out of this thing. Like you can, no way you're gonna keep me in the chair. I wanna be sitting at the table like an adult except then they're like on their knees while they're trying to eat, which is like my son who's five and he's still like I, he's still in a regular chair, gets on his knees to eat

Katie Ferraro (42m 39s):

Back. When I say sit on your bottom like a thousand times at everything. Yes. So

Stephanie Kaplan (42m 42s):

I feel you. Oh my god. And so that was also intentional. Like the, so the highest height, again, all well thought out the highest height of the chair. So that seat that they were using, that footrest that they were using as a footrest in the highest most position is pretty much the exact height of a standard dining chair plus the inches that I think it's like three or three and a half inches to put them at. Again, every child is different, but the whole idea here is that elbows at 90 degrees, your elbows are right here at the table that the table comes just under your chest. And so we have that position for those eaters who are like, I'm done with this bucket seat, get me out of it. But you put them in a seat that makes them feel like they're at the table. And my 8-year-old likes sitting in it because she can put her feet on the foot rest and it's a really comfortable seat and it's cute and it kind of is curved so that when you push them up to the table, like they can't just like squeeze outta the side like a regular chair.

Katie Ferraro (43m 33s):

Exactly. And I, I am a parent who does love straps on a toddler chair just because again, have like two sets of multiples. 'cause then when our quads were 18 months, we had twins. So we had like six in diapers at one time. Like everyone's going through the same thing. And that's not like realistic for most families. But one thing I'll say is like toddlers popping up and jumping out of the chair during meals is so annoying. So I know the current design, when you take the baby seat off the bucket seat, if you're also removing the straps, like if there's, if there's any way to do toddler straps, like it really does help them feel safe and secure at meal times. Like they're used to being buckled in still into the car seat. Like it's not the worst thing to have straps on a toddler seat. And I think a lot of brands are like, oh, you're a toddler. You know, you don't eat straps anymore. It's like, dude, parents need straps for toddlers.

Stephanie Kaplan (44m 14s):

It's an interesting insight when we, when we designed the seat to be clean and sleek and beautiful. I will not lie that it is like, as a parent, I strap my son in because I just don't want him going anywhere. I'm like, God, just stay seated and stop getting up and running around. So I won't lie that it's something we've heard Okay. From customers. And we might be working on something in that regard as well. So,

Katie Ferraro (44m 34s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back.

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Katie Ferraro (45m 15s):

Thank you so much. I just, I feel like you see a brand, your design is beautiful. I also have to say the the emails that come after you purchased the high chair from the Mockingbird High chair, they are so helpful. You guys, like they know exactly like, I know you didn't put that high chair back together. You're not mean about it. You're just like, here's some help if you need a nudge to actually put the highchair together. And just like the videos, everything was so easy to do that I was like, well, what's the next thing I can get from Mockingbird? Just like it was so easy to set up. I I really appreciate it. I don't know if you're working on a travel highchair, but like there's a lot of room for improvement in the world for those.

Stephanie Kaplan (45m 45s):

My very good friend who, who, her daughter was a preemie, she actually just wrote me the other day and was like, are you guys doing a travel chair? 'cause I love your chair. Yeah. And I, and to be honest, like again, the cornerstone of our brand, it's not just that, it's the products, it's, there's an experiential side of what we do, which we have by the largest team on our staff is the CX team, which is our customer experience team. They are freaking amazing. They're crushing it. And our marketing team and our marketing team, every one of those emails cultivated by, they're so amazing. And if you ever contact our customer service, I will put them above literally anyone in the planet for the most kind, empathetic, helpful. And if you have questions about our hijack,

Katie Ferraro (46m 23s):

Like they're just amazing. And they're real people too, Stephanie. Like that's

Stephanie Kaplan (46m 26s):

Amazing. They're amazing. Wow. They're, and that is a, that's a part of who we are as a brand and we continue to invest in that because it's not, again, as a D two C brand, like you're talking about, it would be great to see it in a Target 30 day free home trial. Like what's so loose? You try it, You don't like it, you can always send it back and you have someone that you can talk to pretty much any time of the day who will personally help you set up the chair and probably even send me a message and go, Hey, I just got this message. Like, what's up with that? So that's how close and tight we are as a team. Yes. I'm really proud of that. They're amazing. Well

Katie Ferraro (46m 57s):

Tell everyone on the team, especially with the customer experience team. I mean the, the engineering, the design, I have to say like I'm just blown away by this high chair and I use it multiple times a day for work. And I honestly, it's one of the things I wish that that high chair was around when my children were babies because it really does make the feeding experience easier, but also let them eventually do it themselves. If you buy the right type of highchair, you have the right highchair that supports independent eating.

Stephanie Kaplan (47m 20s):

Oh yeah. And if you look at the silicone dishware that we did, we intentionally didn't design it for parents to use. Like if you look at the spoon, the dipper, it's all size for kids. It was all about

Katie Ferraro (47m 31s):

For them to use. I would hope so. I mean the, that's a whole different episode how asinine most baby feeding gear is that is designed for the parents to feed the baby as opposed to the baby to feed themselves. And I do, I've used your early eater dishware set as well and I think it's a great product too. And I appreciate that. The silicone bib is not like two pounds that weighs down their head. Like it was very intentional. There's not a lot of good silicone bibs out there, but I do like the one that you guys have.

Stephanie Kaplan (47m 55s):

Oh, that's amazing. Well, thank you. Yeah. Awesome.

Katie Ferraro (47m 57s):

Well thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And just remind us one more time where audience can go if they wanna check out the Mockingbird High chair.

Stephanie Kaplan (48m 3s):

Yeah, so you can check it out on our website hello Mockingbird.com or on Babylist and we're, you know, we're on Instagram and TikTok so you can always find out about what we're working on. All those products that I, that one day you might see out in the world we're, we're like little elves working in the background over here.

Katie Ferraro (48m 18s):

I kind of don't want you make new products just like I don't even know if it's possible. We'll keep making the high chair better.

Stephanie Kaplan (48m 22s):

I mean we, we do that too, so it's amazing what we can accomplish.

Katie Ferraro (48m 26s):

Well thank you. I appreciate your time.

Stephanie Kaplan (48m 28s):

Oh yeah, no problem. Thanks.

Katie Ferraro (48m 30s):

Well, I hope you guys enjoyed that interview with Stephanie Kaplan. She's the VP of product at Mockingbird. The Highchair is available at hello Mockingbird.com and you can get that free Early Eaters Dishware set a $45 value when you buy the Mockingbird Highchair. If you use the code baby lead at hello Mockingbird.com, I'll put links to all of the resources that Stephanie mentioned, including how to get that Free Early Eaters dishware set on the show notes for this episode, which you can find at blwpodcast.com/492. And a special thank you to our partners at AirWave Media. If you like podcasts that feature food and science and using your brain, check out some of the podcasts from AirWave. We're online at blwpodcast.com.

Katie Ferraro (49m 11s):

Thanks so much for listening and I'll see you next time.

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