Is Baby-Led Weaning Safe? A Deep Dive into Current Research

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<v SPEAKER_1>Movies and TV shows have spread a certain stereotype about teachers.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But I think a lot of it maybe stems from this sense that teachers aren't entirely human.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And this might be contributing to why teachers are leaving education.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Learn how these stereotypes could be helping to fuel the mass exodus of brilliant teachers.

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<v SPEAKER_4>What I think is particularly interesting about this study is that the researchers found that it was the babies who were offered finger foods the least frequently, that those were the babies who were at elevated risk for choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So I know it may be scary to offer your six-month-old finger foods, but you are helping them so much and actually reducing their risk of choking by allowing them that opportunity to explore with age-appropriate finger foods.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And if you don't offer the finger foods, you may actually be increasing your child's risk of choking down the road.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Hey there, I'm Katie Ferraro, Registered Dietitian, College Nutrition Professor, and mom of seven, specializing in Baby-Led Weaning.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Here on the Baby-Led Weaning with Katie Ferraro podcast, I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, giving you the confidence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using Baby-Led Weaning.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Hello, and welcome back.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And today we're talking about the research behind baby-led weaning.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Is baby-led weaning safe?

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<v SPEAKER_4>We're going to do a deep dive into current research.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And this is for parents who might have heard about baby-led weaning or seen it on social media or online, and you're like, maybe is this some like woo-woo parenting fad or something made up from the internet?

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<v SPEAKER_4>Maybe you're a healthcare practitioner and you've had patients or clients asking you increasingly about baby-led weaning.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And you're curious what research is out there that supports this as a safe and effective alternative to conventional adult-led spoon feeding.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So sometimes we hear, I know personally as a registered dietitian, working in this space, a lot of times I work with or hear from parents who say, I'm interested in baby-led weaning and I want my baby to learn to eat real food, but my doctor says, oh, baby-led weaning isn't safe, or baby-led weaning leads to choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And when we hear that, especially from the healthcare establishment, what that says to me is that that practitioner is demonstrating a lack of understanding about the existing body of research that does support baby-led weaning as a safe and effective alternative to conventional adult-led spoon feeding.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And what I think is important to bring to this conversation is the sheer fact that in the United States of America, we know that less than 90% of physicians have ever taken a dedicated nutrition class.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So when you think about your pediatrician or your family doctor, their scope and what they cover is very, very, very wide.

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<v SPEAKER_4>But when it comes to infant feeding, it's not very deep.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And so it's important.

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<v SPEAKER_4>You would always refer out to an expert if your child had compromised vision or hearing, or if they needed help with occupational therapy.

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<v SPEAKER_4>When it comes to learning about nutrition, when doctors say things like, I'm off to all the way this yesterday, she said literally at the six-month appointment, my doctor was leaving, running out of the room to get to the next appointment and looked over his shoulder back at me and said, oh yeah, and by the way, start solid foods.

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<v SPEAKER_4>She was like, what?

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<v SPEAKER_4>Like that's literally the extent of the infant feeding advice that she was given as a new mom with her six-month-old baby.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So I want you guys to hang tight because in this episode, I'm going to share some of the key highlights from the most important research that indicates that baby-led weaning does not lead to an increased risk of choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It does not lead to nutrient gaps or growth faulting.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And in fact, if we want our children to develop a healthy relationship with food from their first bites, baby-led weaning is actually an approach that helps promote satiety responsiveness, and I'll teach you what that means, as well as family relationships.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And you're going to learn a little bit about how baby-led weaning is actually a responsive feeding method and why that's a good thing.

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<v SPEAKER_4>This is going to be a particular interest to you if you've been breastfeeding or practicing responsive bottle feeding.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So I want to tell you a quick story I do in addition to creating programs and courses for parents and health care providers about baby-led weaning, I do a fair amount of work for the State WIC Association.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So in the United States, the United States Department of Agriculture has a WIC program, the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infant, and Children.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And so this is a program that provides education as well as financial assistance to purchase healthy foods during the periods of pregnancy, and then when you're breastfeeding, and then when you have small children for both the mom and the baby.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And so as a dietitian, I help with some of the modernization of the infant feeding curriculum within the WIC program.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And I do that through a series of presentations and talks that I give to WIC staff throughout the country.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So WIC is a federal program, but it's administered at the state level.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So every year, I talk to dozens of states and do these presentations, and there's eight primary presentations.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So I always talk to the state WIC people, okay, what are we going to talk about this year?

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<v SPEAKER_4>What topic is your staff interested in?

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<v SPEAKER_4>And I looked at the last five years of talks, and the most requested presentation that I give is the one entitled, The Baby-Led Approach to Feeding, colon, what does the research say?

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<v SPEAKER_4>And I've given this talk so many times at this point, I could literally do it in my sleep, but I realized I've never summarized this research on a podcast here.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So we have covered research in the past, and I'm going to share a couple of other resources, and I'll link to all of these, including all of the references that we're covering today.

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<v SPEAKER_4>That'll be on the show notes page for this episode, and the links to the other episodes will be in the description.

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<v SPEAKER_4>If you go back to episode 70, I interviewed Amy Brown.

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<v SPEAKER_4>She is a researcher out of Swansea University in the United Kingdom, very important in the world of Baby-Led Weaning research.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And she did an episode, we did an interview together, called The Evidence Behind Baby-Led Weaning.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So that episode covers a lot of the research up until 2017, but that was a while ago when she wrote her review paper about Baby-Led Weaning, the evidence to date.

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<v SPEAKER_4>I still think that's a very, very important paper.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It is a review, meaning she looked at a lot of the other existing literature and publications and research behind Baby-Led Weaning.

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<v SPEAKER_4>But again, since that was published in 2017, that info only goes up to 2017.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So in this episode, I kind of want to cover some of the newer stuff, but also zoom out and look at like, okay, what does all of the research say?

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<v SPEAKER_4>Like, is Baby-Led Weaning something that you can trust?

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<v SPEAKER_4>And so I want to start with a quick quote from Amy Brown, because in my preparation for the WIC presentation, I remember talking to Amy Brown and saying, hey, I'm working on this presentation here in the US.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It's going to be given to basically all of the WIC educators in the United States.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And just as like a fast fact, this is a statistic that always blows my mind, but in the United States, 50% of all babies born in this country are on the WIC program, meaning they're receiving benefits and education from this program about how to feed themselves and then how to feed their babies.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Again, 50% of all babies.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So the education that we teach to the WIC educators is really, really, really important because it trickles down to more than half of all babies born in the United States.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And I remember asking Amy, like, give me a quote, give me a sound bite.

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<v SPEAKER_4>She has, you know, beautiful publications and books, and I'll share some of her resources as we go through this episode.

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<v SPEAKER_4>I said, tell me what you think is important for a researcher.

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<v SPEAKER_4>But in this case of this podcast, she's speaking to you also, a parent, about the research behind baby-led weaning.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And this is Amy Brown's quote.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And she said, quote, Baby-Led Weaning naturally encourages everything we know about introducing solid foods that leads to positive outcomes.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It's naturally delaying introduction.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It's a gradual introduction, self-paced feeding, and a sensory learning experience.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Whilst you can achieve those through careful spoon-feeding, it is much easier when the baby is allowed to be in charge.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So as we go through the research in today's episode, I have this outline where we cover, and this is exactly what I do in the presentation.

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<v SPEAKER_4>We first talk about choking, because that's everybody's primary concern.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So we're going to look at the research behind baby-led weaning and choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Then we're going to talk about iron and other nutrients.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And there's this old idea that, oh, well, if you're not force-feeding the baby white rice cereal by spoon, then they're going to have nutrient gaps, or they're going to have growth faltering, or they're not going to get enough iron or enough zinc.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So we're going to look at that.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And then thirdly, we're going to look at things like satiety responsiveness, family relationships, and responsive feeding.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So we're getting out of the nerdy nutrition weed stuff, we're getting out of the speech language pathologist choking stuff, and we're looking at the family dynamic.

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<v SPEAKER_4>We're talking about control and anxiety.

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<v SPEAKER_4>I've got some great resources for you if you find yourself being anxious about your baby choking or about allowing your baby to lead the way in feeding themselves.

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<v SPEAKER_4>But let's get started with choking and looking a little bit into the research that exists about choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>The first study that I want to talk about regarding choking is a publication called A Baby-Led Approach to Eating Solids and the Risk of Choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>This was published in the journal Pediatrics in 2016.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And what the principal investigator, Fan Guppo, and colleagues found was that infants who follow a baby-led approach to feeding, that includes advice on minimizing choking risk, do not appear more likely to choke than infants who follow more traditional feeding practices.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So what this particular study found was that baby-led weaning and that approach poses no higher risk of choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>But if you caught the little caveat there, it was as long as the approach included advice on minimizing choking risk.

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<v SPEAKER_4>You can't just send a mom out into the open and say, feed your baby some apple, chicken, and potato.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, it has to include advice on minimizing choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And so, this idea of starting solid foods with age-appropriate finger foods, and when we go through all of this research today, you kind of walk away thinking, gosh, well, one of the overarching themes here is having education about reducing choking risk and about providing iron-containing foods.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Because you can't reduce choking risk and you can't ensure adequate iron status unless the parent is educated about how to do that.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So in all of my programs, the way that we teach parents to reduce choking risk is it's based on three primary pillars.

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<v SPEAKER_4>The first one to reduce choking risk is waiting until your baby is truly ready to start solid foods.

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<v SPEAKER_4>That is being six months or six months at just at age, plus showing the other reliable signs of readiness to eat, the most important of which is the ability to sit relatively unassisted.

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<v SPEAKER_4>That indicates that your baby has the head and neck control as well as the trunk strength to support a safe swallow.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So pillar number one is waiting until your baby is truly ready.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, your baby will choke on food if you try to feed them food at four or five months of age before they're ready.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So step one is waiting until they're ready.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Step two, proper high chair positioning.

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<v SPEAKER_4>We're doing a lot of high chair content lately to show parents how to properly position the baby in the high chair.

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<v SPEAKER_4>The most important piece there is having your baby's feet resting flat on a solid footplate.

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<v SPEAKER_4>gagging is different than choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Babies who learn how to choke gag on foods.

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<v SPEAKER_4>But when they gag on food, the way they prevent that gag from turning into a choke is stomping their feet down on a solid footplate, which engages their muscles and their core, which allows them to utilize the muscles in the back of their mouth to push that food forward and prevent choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So proper high chair positioning is the second way we reduce choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Hey, we're going to take a quick break, but I'll be right back.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Hi, I'm Charles Fournier from the podcast, Those Who Can't Teach Anymore.

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<v SPEAKER_1>During my first year of teaching, I learned pretty quick that teaching was not what I saw in Dead Poets Society.

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<v SPEAKER_1>I think you have something inside of you that is worth a great deal.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And I wasn't the only one that thought this.

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<v SPEAKER_2>But I also had it in my head, the image of the cool, thoughtful, worldly, literary teacher that you see in Dead Poets Society.

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<v SPEAKER_1>And this image of education might be contributing to why teachers are leaving.

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<v SPEAKER_1>The reality of the classroom is not what is seen on TV, but too many folks don't know this.

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<v SPEAKER_1>Listen to Those Who Can't Teach Anymore.

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<v SPEAKER_1>It's an award-winning, ambi-nominated, teacher-made podcast series that explores why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus.

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<v SPEAKER_1>You can find this podcast in all of the podcast places.

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<v SPEAKER_4>The third way we reduce choking is through safe food preparation.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Preparing the foods safely for your baby's age and stage is imperative for safe swallowing.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And so that's the bulk of the work that I do in the parents' space, showing parents through my programs how to make 100 different foods safe.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And in the education side, when I work with health care practitioners, it's how to teach the patients and the clients how to make the foods safe for baby-led weaning.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So if you wait until you're ready and you properly position your baby in the high chair and you show them how to make the food safe, those three things lower choking risk, and that is borne out in the research, again showing no higher risk of choking compared to conventional adult-led spoon feeding, but it only holds true when parents are educated about reducing choking risk.

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<v SPEAKER_4>What's interesting about that particular study, the pediatric study, is that the researchers found that even in the group that had had education, they were still offering some high-risk choking foods.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And so it is important that you know which types of food not to feed your baby.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And if you're not sure which foods not to feed your baby, I have a free feeding guide called 15 Foods Never To Feed.

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<v SPEAKER_4>You can download that from my website.

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<v SPEAKER_4>If you go to babyledweaning.co.

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<v SPEAKER_4>You can download the free feeding guide called 15 Foods Never To Feed.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So when we look at baby-led weaning research, a lot of the original research and even the subsequent publications will link back to the BLISS study.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So BLISS stands for the Baby-Led Introduction to Solids.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And this is a study, it was a randomized controlled trial of a baby-led approach to complementary feeding.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And in the BLISS pilot study, there was research to demonstrate that baby-led weaning may increase the intake of iron and decrease the choking risk.

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<v SPEAKER_4>So there was a BLISS group and a standard conventional baby-led weaning group in the BLISS pilot study.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And what the difference between the two groups in this study was in the BLISS groups, babies were randomized to one of two groups, right?

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<v SPEAKER_4>If you got in the BLISS group, it was like, I call it baby-led weaning plus.

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<v SPEAKER_4>It was, you're interested in baby-led weaning, but you're also going to get some education on reducing choking risk and increasing iron intake in your baby.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And then if you were in the other group, it was like, hey, you're interested in baby-led weaning, but you just go out there into the wild, wild internet world and you figure it out on your own.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Okay?

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<v SPEAKER_4>And what the researchers found was that the babies in the BLISS group, okay, that was baby-led weaning plus, the ones that got the extra info and education on reducing choking risk and increasing iron, that group, they were significantly less likely to be offered high-choking risk foods compared to the standard baby-led weaning group at six and eight months of age.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Because if you just like think baby-led weaning means, oh, that just means skipping purees and giving your baby regular adult pinky-sized shaped pieces of food, you may be at risk for feeding them meats that were prepared improperly or vegetables or fruits that are not too soft or whole grains that had too complicated of textures for the phase that they were at.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Long story short, getting the education about reducing choking and increasing iron, that helps lower overall choking risk.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, so the Bliss infants were significantly less likely to be offered those high choking risk foods compared to the standard Baby-Led Weaning group.

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<v SPEAKER_4>But what was interesting is the researchers found that both raw apples and grapes were the foods in both groups that were reported to have caused the most choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Inherent in all these studies is the problem about choking.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Choking is self-reported.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, so a parent will say, oh, my baby choked on that food.

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<v SPEAKER_4>When a parent tells me, oh, my baby had a choking incident, like, tell me about it.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Hoping at the end of the story, if the baby truly choked, the parent's like, and then I extracted them from the high chair, I turned them over and I administered back blows as I was taught in my, you know, infant refresher CPR course.

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<v SPEAKER_4>And they'll be like, oh, the baby choked, but then he like got over it and spit it out and went back to eating.

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<v SPEAKER_4>Well, that's not choking, that's gagging.

00:16:38.598 --> 00:16:46.518

<v SPEAKER_4>And so understanding the difference between gagging and choking is a very important part of giving your baby a safe start to solid food so that you know how to react.

00:16:46.518 --> 00:16:58.098

<v SPEAKER_4>So that, again, in this research, a lot of times the parents will say, oh, my baby choked, but if you're offering your baby raw apples or grapes in the earlier stages of starting solid foods, those are certainly choking risk foods.

00:16:58.098 --> 00:17:01.518

<v SPEAKER_4>I do not do grapes for earlier eaters before they have their pincer grasp.

00:17:01.518 --> 00:17:09.778

<v SPEAKER_4>We have some recipes where we modify grapes, and I can show you how to do that if you're interested to do grapes, like if you have to do it for whatever reason in the first few weeks of starting solid foods.

00:17:09.778 --> 00:17:13.178

<v SPEAKER_4>But for the most part, we don't do grapes until phase two of our program.

00:17:13.178 --> 00:17:15.638

<v SPEAKER_4>That's the second eight weeks of Baby-Led Weaning.

00:17:15.638 --> 00:17:19.938

<v SPEAKER_4>That's after your baby has developed their pincer grasp and has been eating solid foods for eight weeks.

00:17:20.318 --> 00:17:24.598

<v SPEAKER_4>In phase one, we can do foods like apples for sure, but we need to modify those apples.

00:17:24.598 --> 00:17:30.858

<v SPEAKER_4>So I teach you how to cut them and core them and peel them and poach them to make them soft so that they pass the squish test.

00:17:30.858 --> 00:17:36.958

<v SPEAKER_4>An apple prepared that way is very safe for an early eater in phase one, the first eight weeks of Baby-Led Weaning.

00:17:36.958 --> 00:17:40.358

<v SPEAKER_4>But we don't offer those high-risk choking foods raw to babies.

00:17:40.358 --> 00:17:47.318

<v SPEAKER_4>Sometimes parents will hop on social media and be like, oh, I see apples as food my baby can eat and we'll just offer like hard strips of apple to a baby with the peel on.

00:17:47.758 --> 00:17:50.378

<v SPEAKER_4>No, no, no, no, no, that's definitely high-risk choking food.

00:17:50.378 --> 00:17:52.898

<v SPEAKER_4>So that's where the education piece comes in.

00:17:52.898 --> 00:18:01.098

<v SPEAKER_4>The last research article that I want to mention regarding choking was also published by Amy Brown, the researcher who contributed the quote that I mentioned early on.

00:18:01.098 --> 00:18:12.358

<v SPEAKER_4>In 2018, one of her publications was called No Difference in Self-Reported Frequency of Choking Between Infants Introduced to Solid Foods Using a Baby-Led Weaning or Traditional Spoon-Feeding Approach.

00:18:12.358 --> 00:18:19.718

<v SPEAKER_4>And what Amy's research group found was that baby-led weaning was not associated with increased risk of choking.

00:18:19.718 --> 00:18:34.558

<v SPEAKER_4>And she also includes what I think to be probably the most compelling bit of research regarding baby-led weaning and choking was that the highest frequency of choking on finger foods occurred in those who were given finger foods the least often.

00:18:34.558 --> 00:18:35.398

<v SPEAKER_4>So think about that.

00:18:35.398 --> 00:18:38.498

<v SPEAKER_4>You, as a new parent, you are scared about offering your baby finger foods.

00:18:38.498 --> 00:18:38.798

<v SPEAKER_4>Why?

00:18:38.798 --> 00:18:39.758

<v SPEAKER_4>You think they're going to choke.

00:18:39.758 --> 00:18:40.718

<v SPEAKER_4>But guess what?

00:18:40.718 --> 00:18:46.558

<v SPEAKER_4>The babies who are given finger foods the least often, they're the ones actually at elevated risk for choking.

00:18:46.558 --> 00:19:09.358

<v SPEAKER_4>And if you talk to feeding therapists, right, our colleagues, or speech language pathologists, or occupational therapists who work, especially with toddlers, in feeding therapy, so many of them will tell you, oh my gosh, a lot of what I see in toddlers could have totally been prevented and they would not have needed feeding therapy had the baby been allowed to experiment with age-appropriate, different textures beyond purees from the time they were six months of age.

00:19:09.358 --> 00:19:14.658

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, it is developmentally appropriate for six-month-old babies to start experimenting with finger foods.

00:19:14.658 --> 00:19:20.678

<v SPEAKER_4>But if you don't let your six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven-month-old baby explore anything else except a puree, guess what?

00:19:20.678 --> 00:19:24.838

<v SPEAKER_4>At 12 months of age, when most of their nutrition can be coming from food, it's not going to be.

00:19:24.838 --> 00:19:28.338

<v SPEAKER_4>All they're going to be able to do is drink milk and suck purees.

00:19:28.338 --> 00:19:33.318

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, so we want to get those finger foods in earlier and often, and baby-led weaning allows us to do that.

00:19:33.318 --> 00:19:50.378

<v SPEAKER_4>Let's move on from choking to the second area of concern with regards to baby-led weaning is sometimes you'll hear detractors or people who don't understand it say, oh, well, if I don't force feed the baby white rice cereal that's fortified with iron, then there's no way they're going to get enough iron or zinc, and they're going to be deficient in different nutrients.

00:19:50.378 --> 00:19:52.498

<v SPEAKER_4>They need fortified foods.

00:19:52.498 --> 00:20:05.058

<v SPEAKER_4>With baby-led weaning, we do not need to include any processed commercial baby foods that are fortified because we acknowledge that the baby is continuing to get valuable source of nutrition from breast milk or formula.

00:20:05.058 --> 00:20:13.038

<v SPEAKER_4>Infant milk, breast milk and or formula continues to be your baby's primary source of nutrition even after you start solid foods.

00:20:13.038 --> 00:20:17.618

<v SPEAKER_4>So the foods that you're introducing, those are complementary foods or supplemental foods.

00:20:17.618 --> 00:20:21.638

<v SPEAKER_4>They're on top of the nutrition that your baby is getting from infant milk.

00:20:21.638 --> 00:20:34.398

<v SPEAKER_4>And as your baby gets more proficient in feeding themselves real foods, they will gradually get more nutrition from food and less nutrition from milk, such that by the one year mark, most of your baby's nutrition can be coming from food.

00:20:34.398 --> 00:20:41.918

<v SPEAKER_4>In the publication of the Bliss Pilot Study, they compared the Baby-Led Weaning group, the standard figured out on your own group, to the Bliss group.

00:20:41.918 --> 00:20:48.038

<v SPEAKER_4>Remember, they're the ones that got the extra education about choking and reducing choking risk and including iron foods.

00:20:48.038 --> 00:21:06.678

<v SPEAKER_4>So it's not surprising that if you were in a group where an expert taught you which iron-containing foods to feed your baby, the Bliss group had a higher introduction of iron-containing foods in the first week of the introduction of solid foods, and they offered more portions of those foods at six months.

00:21:07.118 --> 00:21:10.958

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, so not only were they starting with high iron foods in week one.

00:21:10.958 --> 00:21:12.338

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, that's why we do that in our program.

00:21:12.338 --> 00:21:20.318

<v SPEAKER_4>In week one, we start you on whole grains and meats, in addition to fruits and vegetables which have the vitamin C, which is going to help your baby absorb the iron from other foods.

00:21:20.318 --> 00:21:27.978

<v SPEAKER_4>And we hit the ground running because there are ways that your baby can eat safe animal and plant protein foods that contain iron.

00:21:27.978 --> 00:21:47.358

<v SPEAKER_4>And so if you start out offering those babies the high iron foods, and then you have a system by which you can continue to offer babies high iron foods, not surprisingly, at the 6-month mark and the 8-month mark, those babies were eating more iron-containing foods than the parents who were maybe just figuring it on their own and just doing avocado, banana, and sweet potato.

00:21:47.358 --> 00:21:58.678

<v SPEAKER_4>Those are simple starter foods, but we find that parents who haven't gotten into a system or don't have a plan for introducing solid foods, they tend to get stuck on those simple starter foods, avocado, banana, and sweet potato.

00:21:58.678 --> 00:22:02.638

<v SPEAKER_4>And those are fine for days 1, 2, and 3 of starting solid foods, but they don't contain iron.

00:22:03.098 --> 00:22:07.438

<v SPEAKER_4>They don't have the proteins that we want to introduce to reduce the risk of food allergy.

00:22:07.438 --> 00:22:09.998

<v SPEAKER_4>They don't have the different texture that baby needs.

00:22:09.998 --> 00:22:20.678

<v SPEAKER_4>So the avocado, the banana, the sweet potato, again, super fine for starting solid foods in the first 1, 2, 3 days, but we want to get those iron-containing foods in there, and that's how we lower the risk of iron.

00:22:20.678 --> 00:22:27.758

<v SPEAKER_4>Daniels and colleagues in 2018 published an article called The Impact of a Modified Version of Baby-Led Weaning on Iron Intake and Status.

00:22:27.758 --> 00:22:42.338

<v SPEAKER_4>This is a randomized control trial, and what these researchers found was that a baby-led approach to complementary feeding does not appear to increase the risk of iron deficiency in infants when their parents are given advice to offer high iron foods with each meal.

00:22:42.338 --> 00:22:49.378

<v SPEAKER_4>And maybe this is starting to sound repetitive, but educating the parents about including the high iron foods with each meal, that's important.

00:22:49.378 --> 00:22:54.978

<v SPEAKER_4>Remember my friend who the doctor was literally running out of the office looking over his shoulder saying, oh, and by the way, start solid foods?

00:22:54.978 --> 00:23:01.078

<v SPEAKER_4>Do you think that mom got advice from her doctor on safe ways to offer naturally-containing foods of iron for her six-month-old?

00:23:01.518 --> 00:23:02.618

<v SPEAKER_4>Absolutely not.

00:23:02.618 --> 00:23:03.158

<v SPEAKER_4>We're friends.

00:23:03.158 --> 00:23:05.238

<v SPEAKER_4>I'm working with her, doing parent coaching.

00:23:05.238 --> 00:23:06.558

<v SPEAKER_4>I'm showing her in the first week.

00:23:06.558 --> 00:23:08.718

<v SPEAKER_4>She's following our 101st Foods Daily Meal Plan.

00:23:08.718 --> 00:23:12.958

<v SPEAKER_4>Week one, we're banging out five different foods, three of which are high iron foods.

00:23:12.958 --> 00:23:15.838

<v SPEAKER_4>Is her baby super proficient at eating all those foods yet?

00:23:15.838 --> 00:23:25.918

<v SPEAKER_4>No, but he's learning how to do that, and mom is getting used to including a variety of iron-containing foods, and her baby is not going to be at risk for iron deficiency.

00:23:25.918 --> 00:23:30.198

<v SPEAKER_4>For some parents, iron deficiency is high on the radar, like, oh my gosh, I'm so worried my baby's not going to get enough iron.

00:23:30.578 --> 00:23:36.898

<v SPEAKER_4>But a lot of other parents don't realize that iron deficiency is the number one micronutrient deficiency in children worldwide.

00:23:36.898 --> 00:23:44.518

<v SPEAKER_4>So it's not such a huge problem in the developed world, but in the developing world, it certainly is a concern.

00:23:44.518 --> 00:24:04.418

<v SPEAKER_4>And so if we wean from a high or iron-rich diet like breast milk, which even though breast milk doesn't have as much iron as formula does, the type of iron in breast milk is very well absorbed by the baby's body, but once mom stops breastfeeding, the baby goes on to a refined grain or low iron diet, which a lot of highly-processed diets are, then that child is at risk for iron deficiency.

00:24:04.418 --> 00:24:19.758

<v SPEAKER_4>But back to Daniels and colleagues in their study, they found that when parents who follow the baby-led approach to complementary feeding were given advice to offer their infants high iron foods with every meal, their iron status was similar to that of the infants who were fed the fortified foods.

00:24:19.758 --> 00:24:21.158

<v SPEAKER_4>And this finding is very important.

00:24:21.158 --> 00:24:23.878

<v SPEAKER_4>This is actually a quote that the researchers include in this publication.

00:24:23.878 --> 00:24:33.178

<v SPEAKER_4>Quote, this finding is important given health professionals' concerns that baby-led approaches to complementary feeding may increase the risk of iron deficiency.

00:24:33.178 --> 00:24:53.178

<v SPEAKER_4>So to all the dieticians out there listening, it's important to remember that we need to be focusing on the iron-rich foods, not stressing parents out about it, not saying, oh my gosh, these are the only foods your baby should be eating, but showing them how even in week one and week two and week three, all the weeks of starting solid foods, that we can be safely incorporating different types of iron-containing foods.

00:24:53.178 --> 00:24:55.738

<v SPEAKER_4>Hey, we're going to take a quick break, but I'll be right back.

00:25:03.948 --> 00:25:06.728

<v SPEAKER_6>Hey there, I'm Dylan Lewis, one of the hosts of Motley Fool Money.

00:25:06.728 --> 00:25:12.448

<v SPEAKER_6>Each weekday on Motley Fool Money, we talk through the business news you need to know and the stories moving stocks on Wall Street.

00:25:12.448 --> 00:25:18.548

<v SPEAKER_6>On weekends, we dive into the industries shaping tomorrow and host the experts, authors, and executives that understand them.

00:25:18.548 --> 00:25:23.528

<v SPEAKER_6>Tune in for insights, a long-term perspective on investing, and of course, stock ideas, plenty of them.

00:25:23.528 --> 00:25:25.508

<v SPEAKER_6>To quote a listener, it pays to listen.

00:25:25.508 --> 00:25:27.828

<v SPEAKER_6>Check us out and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

00:25:35.032 --> 00:25:39.672

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, so we've covered choking, we took a little bit of a look at the micronutrient, primarily iron.

00:25:39.672 --> 00:25:42.092

<v SPEAKER_4>But now, overall energy and nutrient intake.

00:25:42.092 --> 00:25:48.232

<v SPEAKER_4>Some parents or practitioners worry, well, if we're not force-feeding the baby fortified cereals by spoon, how are they gonna get enough calories?

00:25:48.232 --> 00:25:58.652

<v SPEAKER_4>Rowan and colleagues in 2019 published an article called The Differences in Dietary Composition Between Infants Introduced to Complementary Foods Using Baby-Led Weaning and Traditional Spoon Feeding.

00:25:58.652 --> 00:26:05.032

<v SPEAKER_4>And they compared strict baby-led weaning with loose baby-led weaning, and then traditional spoon-fed babies.

00:26:05.032 --> 00:26:11.012

<v SPEAKER_4>Strict baby-led weaning is like you're following a program, you're following a meal plan, you're really, really committed to introducing a variety of foods.

00:26:11.012 --> 00:26:18.092

<v SPEAKER_4>Loose baby-led weaning is like, oh, I'm just like putting some finger foods out there, maybe something from my plate, not really thinking about what I'm offering the baby.

00:26:18.092 --> 00:26:20.232

<v SPEAKER_4>And then traditionally spoon-fed babies.

00:26:20.232 --> 00:26:28.592

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, the strict baby-led weaning cohort were more likely to be exposed to vegetables than were traditionally weaned babies.

00:26:28.592 --> 00:26:34.232

<v SPEAKER_4>And a lot of times that's because if parents don't have a plan, and they just kind of default to fruit, fruit is easy to prepare.

00:26:34.232 --> 00:26:40.852

<v SPEAKER_4>Soft babies love fruit, they don't think about offering any other foods, and then all of a sudden they're like, guess what, my baby will only eat fruit.

00:26:40.852 --> 00:26:47.652

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, there's no significant differences in exposure to iron-containing foods between the weaning groups at any age.

00:26:47.652 --> 00:27:01.752

<v SPEAKER_4>So what this particular publication proves is that if you follow baby-led weaning, even if you're not really super strict about how you're doing it, your baby's not going to end up with less iron or less nutrients than the spoon-fed babies are.

00:27:01.752 --> 00:27:07.912

<v SPEAKER_4>Now, if you're only sticking to avocados, bananas, and sweet potatoes, we know what happens over time, right, that those are not iron-rich foods.

00:27:07.912 --> 00:27:13.552

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, you're not going to be introducing all of the different nutrients that your baby needs if you only stick to three-finger foods.

00:27:13.552 --> 00:27:23.232

<v SPEAKER_4>If we look at Morrison and Colleague's publication, How Different Are Baby-Led Weaning and Conventional Complementary Feeding, this is a cross-sectional study of infants aged six to eight months.

00:27:23.232 --> 00:27:25.612

<v SPEAKER_4>And in this study, they analyze the BLISS data.

00:27:25.932 --> 00:27:28.112

<v SPEAKER_4>They examine energy intake only.

00:27:28.112 --> 00:27:32.232

<v SPEAKER_4>So as far as I'm aware, this is the only study that assesses energy intake.

00:27:32.232 --> 00:27:34.412

<v SPEAKER_4>So that's calorie intake.

00:27:34.412 --> 00:27:35.772

<v SPEAKER_4>Energy equates to calories.

00:27:35.772 --> 00:27:37.272

<v SPEAKER_4>That's what fuels your baby's body.

00:27:37.272 --> 00:27:47.732

<v SPEAKER_4>And what they found was that in the food intake reports, there were similar intakes of calories in the baby-led weaning group and in the spoon-fed infants group.

00:27:47.732 --> 00:27:54.532

<v SPEAKER_4>So if you're concerned, oh my gosh, my baby's not getting enough because I'm not shoving the spoon of food down their mouth, please don't be.

00:27:54.532 --> 00:28:02.172

<v SPEAKER_4>If we trust the process and allow the babies to feed themselves, this research indicates that the babies will eventually learn to get enough calories.

00:28:02.172 --> 00:28:05.312

<v SPEAKER_4>And don't forget, you've got that insurance policy there of the infant milk, right?

00:28:05.312 --> 00:28:14.272

<v SPEAKER_4>Breast milk or formula still continuing to provide your baby with very valuable amounts of nutrition as they are taking that long time that they need to learn how to eat.

00:28:14.272 --> 00:28:24.332

<v SPEAKER_4>So in this particular publication by Morrison and colleagues, the infants who followed the baby-led weaning approach, they had similar energy intakes to those following traditional spoon-feeding.

00:28:24.332 --> 00:28:32.412

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, and then when they compared the groups at 7 months, and then again at 12 months, they found no significant difference in energy intake between the two groups.

00:28:32.412 --> 00:28:38.872

<v SPEAKER_4>So that will hopefully alleviate some of the anxiety for the parents who are concerned about, oh my gosh, my baby's not going to be getting enough calories.

00:28:38.872 --> 00:28:42.412

<v SPEAKER_4>So baby-led weaning when it comes to choking does not increase the risk of choking.

00:28:42.412 --> 00:28:45.652

<v SPEAKER_4>When it comes to nutrient gaps, there's no higher risk of iron deficiency.

00:28:45.652 --> 00:28:51.332

<v SPEAKER_4>When it comes to growth faltering, there's no indication that if you let your baby feed themselves, they're not going to get enough calories and stop growing.

00:28:51.332 --> 00:28:59.652

<v SPEAKER_4>So let's look at the final pillar that we were going to analyze today in the research, and that was satiety, responsiveness, family relationships, and responsive feeding.

00:28:59.652 --> 00:29:08.612

<v SPEAKER_4>Amy Brown did another study published in the journal Pediatric Obesity called Early Influences on Child Satiety Responsiveness, The Role of Weaning Style.

00:29:08.612 --> 00:29:11.072

<v SPEAKER_4>Satiety is the act of feeling full.

00:29:11.072 --> 00:29:12.852

<v SPEAKER_4>If you are satiated, you are full.

00:29:12.852 --> 00:29:16.512

<v SPEAKER_4>Ideally, we as human beings should stop eating when we are full.

00:29:16.512 --> 00:29:24.952

<v SPEAKER_4>But there are lots of practices, there are lots of external pressures, internal situations that may cause us to overeat and eat beyond the point of responsiveness.

00:29:24.952 --> 00:29:31.792

<v SPEAKER_4>So how can we look at starting solid foods and the role that eventually that will play on a child's satiety responsiveness?

00:29:31.792 --> 00:29:34.032

<v SPEAKER_4>That's what Amy Brown was looking at in this particular study.

00:29:34.032 --> 00:29:47.132

<v SPEAKER_4>And she found that those who followed the baby-led approach, those children were significantly more likely at 18 to 24 months of age to be rated as less food responsive and more satiety responsive.

00:29:47.392 --> 00:29:48.992

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, we want satiety responsiveness.

00:29:48.992 --> 00:29:53.432

<v SPEAKER_4>We don't want you to eat because you see food or you're just conditioned to ask for snacks all day long.

00:29:53.432 --> 00:29:58.412

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, we want a child to eat because they feel some degree of what I call casual hunger.

00:29:58.432 --> 00:30:04.632

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, we're not saying to starve the children out, but it is not a bad thing for your child to feel some casual hunger at the table.

00:30:04.632 --> 00:30:07.892

<v SPEAKER_4>That's what initiates interest and participation in meal time.

00:30:07.892 --> 00:30:13.792

<v SPEAKER_4>And so what Amy Brown's research article suggests is that baby-led weaning leads to better appetite control.

00:30:14.252 --> 00:30:23.452

<v SPEAKER_4>Now, of course, the same problem underlies this study as all the other ones covered in this podcast episode today is that all this data is based on self-report.

00:30:23.452 --> 00:30:26.592

<v SPEAKER_4>And she acknowledges that in the limitations portion of the study.

00:30:26.592 --> 00:30:32.852

<v SPEAKER_4>So Jo Cormack, who's a researcher in the United Kingdom, she's been a guest on this podcast before talking about anxiety in the feeding relationship.

00:30:32.852 --> 00:30:35.092

<v SPEAKER_4>I'll link to that episode for you as well.

00:30:35.092 --> 00:30:49.512

<v SPEAKER_4>But in her publication from 2020 called Self-Determination Theory as a Theoretical Framework for a Responsive Approach to Child Feeding, her research indicated and found that infants regulate their energy intake through complex hunger and satiety cues.

00:30:49.512 --> 00:30:53.472

<v SPEAKER_4>And you're probably familiar with hunger and satiety cues from breastfeeding or bottle feeding.

00:30:53.472 --> 00:30:54.672

<v SPEAKER_4>Your baby's hungry, they cry.

00:30:54.672 --> 00:30:57.072

<v SPEAKER_4>When they're full, they push their head away from the breast or the bottle.

00:30:57.072 --> 00:30:59.872

<v SPEAKER_4>And then there's a lot of other little nuances in between there.

00:30:59.872 --> 00:31:13.112

<v SPEAKER_4>But when eating is directed by parents in relation to what and how much should be consumed, Cormack and colleagues maintain that autonomy is compromised and self-regulation is hampered.

00:31:13.112 --> 00:31:25.332

<v SPEAKER_4>So if you feel like you're one of those parents or you're one of those caregivers who has to constantly be in charge of how much the child is eating, you must eat this much of this amount of food that I picked out, you are compromising the baby's autonomy.

00:31:25.332 --> 00:31:27.572

<v SPEAKER_4>Their self-regulation is hampered.

00:31:27.572 --> 00:31:28.932

<v SPEAKER_4>She has a lot of beautiful writing.

00:31:28.932 --> 00:31:35.192

<v SPEAKER_4>She also speaks very eloquently about this and how to help relinquish control in parents that are struggling with this.

00:31:35.192 --> 00:31:37.832

<v SPEAKER_4>And I would invite you to go and listen back, way back.

00:31:37.912 --> 00:31:40.892

<v SPEAKER_4>This is an old episode, episode 214.

00:31:40.892 --> 00:31:45.172

<v SPEAKER_4>Jo Cormack was on talking about overcoming anxiety in the feeding relationship.

00:31:45.172 --> 00:31:49.352

<v SPEAKER_4>And she talks more in depth about that particular study that I just mentioned.

00:31:49.352 --> 00:31:52.752

<v SPEAKER_4>I want to move on to talking about family relationships and responsive feeding.

00:31:52.752 --> 00:31:59.332

<v SPEAKER_4>There's a lot of data out there about the relationship between starting solid foods and how that affects the family dynamic.

00:31:59.752 --> 00:32:09.652

<v SPEAKER_4>As we move in to kind of, I call this like phase two of Baby-Led Weaning, the post, I was talking to a researcher about this yesterday, the post Facebook group era of Baby-Led Weaning.

00:32:09.652 --> 00:32:16.692

<v SPEAKER_4>So early on in the earlier days of Baby-Led Weaning, a lot of the controversy and the vitriol, it all went down in the Facebook groups.

00:32:16.692 --> 00:32:19.492

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, we've kind of moved out of that, thankfully.

00:32:19.492 --> 00:32:24.472

<v SPEAKER_4>And Baby-Led Weaning is being recognized as a safe and effective alternative to starting solid foods.

00:32:24.472 --> 00:32:30.812

<v SPEAKER_4>And I would argue that a lot of that is due to its adoption by credentialed feeding experts and professionals such as myself, right?

00:32:30.812 --> 00:32:39.692

<v SPEAKER_4>If the dieticians are endorsing it, the occupational therapists are endorsing it, the speech language pathologists are endorsing it, the pediatricians are slowly beginning to endorse it.

00:32:39.692 --> 00:32:44.712

<v SPEAKER_4>And we have, I try to have as many pediatricians on this podcast with as many differing views as possible.

00:32:44.712 --> 00:32:55.132

<v SPEAKER_4>But I'll tell you that it's the pediatricians who have done Baby-Led Weaning with their own babies, who all of a sudden are like, wow, this is way better than shoving a spoon of food down a baby's throat, isn't it?

00:32:55.132 --> 00:33:05.312

<v SPEAKER_4>And so when the credentialed feeding experts are starting to band together, you're starting to see this more cohesive explanation of Baby-Led Weaning as being a responsive feeding method.

00:33:05.312 --> 00:33:10.452

<v SPEAKER_4>And so some of the research articles, I'm going to include these in the references, and I don't have time to go through all of them.

00:33:10.452 --> 00:33:24.052

<v SPEAKER_4>But to summarize the role of Baby-Led Weaning in the family relationship, we know that if we do the opposite, okay, if we control the approach to feeding, if we include pressure at meal times, it makes avoidant feeding worse.

00:33:24.052 --> 00:33:25.812

<v SPEAKER_4>It invites conflict at meal time.

00:33:26.212 --> 00:33:32.412

<v SPEAKER_4>It reduces eating enjoyment, and it leads to increased eating in the absence of hunger cues.

00:33:32.412 --> 00:33:34.172

<v SPEAKER_4>And that's what we don't want, right?

00:33:34.172 --> 00:33:47.552

<v SPEAKER_4>We don't want a bunch of little kids running around screaming for snacks because they have no idea what actually feeling hunger feels like, or when they do feel hunger, they don't know how to eat a variety of different foods because they were never exposed to them during that all-important flavor window.

00:33:47.552 --> 00:33:52.352

<v SPEAKER_4>And the flavor window is the period of time where your baby will like and accept a wide variety of foods.

00:33:52.512 --> 00:33:56.952

<v SPEAKER_4>And thankfully, it coincides with when babies start solid foods.

00:33:56.952 --> 00:34:07.772

<v SPEAKER_4>So if from the beginning, you can offer a variety of different foods, and those foods contain iron, and they're prepared in a way that reduces choking risk, and you offer them in a variety of different ways, and over and over, right?

00:34:07.772 --> 00:34:12.052

<v SPEAKER_4>Because it might take a baby 10 or 15 times before they like or accept a food.

00:34:12.052 --> 00:34:24.112

<v SPEAKER_4>The combination of those practices in the weaning period between 6 and 12 months, that's what sets you up for success in feeding your family through the toddler years, through the preschool years, through the school age years, and so on and so forth.

00:34:24.112 --> 00:34:31.812

<v SPEAKER_4>So I know it's a lot of work to offer babies a variety of food, but I oftentimes tell parents, you have to feed this child for the next 17 and a half years of its life.

00:34:31.812 --> 00:34:36.012

<v SPEAKER_4>So you might as well do the hard work now, when they'll actually eat the foods that you're preparing.

00:34:36.012 --> 00:34:41.492

<v SPEAKER_4>So I want to leave you with a quick win, to think of baby-led weaning not as an alternative to purees.

00:34:41.492 --> 00:34:50.312

<v SPEAKER_4>I don't want you to think of it as the opposite of adult-led spoon feeding, but rather if you can think of baby-led weaning as a responsive feeding method.

00:34:50.312 --> 00:34:57.592

<v SPEAKER_4>Responsive feeding is considered a best-feeding practice by the American Academy of Pediatrics and the World Health Organization.

00:34:57.592 --> 00:35:11.472

<v SPEAKER_4>And to paraphrase Jo Cormack, responsive feeding recognizes the importance of supporting innate skills of self-regulation through the parents' establishment of an appropriate context for eating.

00:35:11.472 --> 00:35:23.272

<v SPEAKER_4>Responsive feeding entails parental acknowledgement of and respect for your children's signals of hunger and satiety, followed by a response that's appropriate to their developmental stage.

00:35:23.272 --> 00:35:35.512

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, so if we don't engage in responsive feeding, not if you don't do baby-led weaning, but if you're shoving spoons of food down your baby's mouth because you think you know how much they need to eat and when, that's a non-responsive feeding method.

00:35:35.512 --> 00:35:45.172

<v SPEAKER_4>In non-responsive feeding, the parents remain, sometimes it's under-involved, or they'll adopt controlling feeding practices such as restriction or pressure to eat.

00:35:45.172 --> 00:35:50.952

<v SPEAKER_4>And we know from the research that non-responsive feeding can lead to interruption of self-regulation.

00:35:50.952 --> 00:35:53.172

<v SPEAKER_4>It can contribute to avoidant eating.

00:35:53.172 --> 00:35:56.932

<v SPEAKER_4>It can lead to weight dysregulation and eating disorders.

00:35:56.932 --> 00:36:18.212

<v SPEAKER_4>All signs point to what can we do to promote responsive feeding when we start solid foods, baby-led weaning is the approach that allows your baby to eat a variety of foods that contain the proper nutrient mix, that can be prepared safely to lower choking risk, and it will help them meet their feeding and nutrition milestones.

00:36:18.212 --> 00:36:27.132

<v SPEAKER_4>If you'd like to visit or review any of the articles covered in today's episode, I'll link them all in the show notes, which you can find online at plwpodcast.com/fourseventhree.

00:36:30.272 --> 00:36:36.612

<v SPEAKER_4>If you'd like help with the food preparation side, preparing the food safely to help reduce choking risk.

00:36:36.972 --> 00:36:45.372

<v SPEAKER_4>And if you need an idea of which foods to feed when and in what order, I'd invite you to check out my program, Baby-Led Weaning with Katie Ferraro.

00:36:45.372 --> 00:36:51.192

<v SPEAKER_4>I have 101st Foods Daily Meal Plan that shows you five new foods a week, 20 weeks in a row.

00:36:51.192 --> 00:36:56.552

<v SPEAKER_4>In five short months, your baby will have eaten 100 different foods safely, gotten all of those nutrients.

00:36:56.552 --> 00:36:59.092

<v SPEAKER_4>I also have 101st Foods Content Library in there.

00:36:59.092 --> 00:37:06.212

<v SPEAKER_4>So you can pop in, look at a video for a particular food, see how to prepare it safely, find a bunch of different recipes for your baby's age and stage.

00:37:06.612 --> 00:37:10.752

<v SPEAKER_4>Tackle that food, check it off the 101st Foods List and get on with your life.

00:37:10.752 --> 00:37:18.332

<v SPEAKER_4>Okay, because I know you have a lot more better things to do than worry about, oh my gosh, am I engaging in responsive versus non-responsive feeding methods at this point.

00:37:18.332 --> 00:37:23.112

<v SPEAKER_4>You can check out that program Baby-Led Weaning with Katie Ferraro at babyledweaning.co.

00:37:23.112 --> 00:37:24.232

<v SPEAKER_4>slash program.

00:37:24.232 --> 00:37:26.852

<v SPEAKER_4>A special thank you to our partners at Airwave Media.

00:37:26.852 --> 00:37:31.872

<v SPEAKER_4>If you guys like podcasts that feature food and science and using your brain, check out some of the podcasts from Airwave.

00:37:31.872 --> 00:37:34.012

<v SPEAKER_4>We're online at blwpodcast.com.

00:37:34.432 --> 00:37:36.292

<v SPEAKER_4>Thanks so much for listening and I'll see you next time.

00:37:44.755 --> 00:37:54.235

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