Gill Rapley, PhD (1m 57s):

There's so much learning that needs to go on. It's not all about eating. It's such a pity. If babies are denied that early period of just looking at food munching on it and spitting it out and just getting acquainted with it just because they're not actually ready to eat it.

Katie Ferraro (2m 12s):

Hey, there I'm Katie Ferraro Registered Dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby led weaning, here on the baby led weaning made easy podcast. I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leading you with the competence and knowledge. You need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby led weaning. Why is baby led weaning called baby led weaning? I didn't realize I've been thinking about it until we keep this Google sheet of subject light inspiration. So from other emails that you're subscribed to that for no other reason than I just studied the subject lines.

Katie Ferraro (2m 54s):

And one came across the other day, it said, where did the dopp kit get its name? I was like, oh, where did baby-led weaning get its name? Hold up. Let's ask Gill Rapley, who is the pioneer of baby led weaning the founding philosopher, as I like to refer to her, Gill Rapley wrote the original baby led weaning books. She's been on the podcast a number of times talking about the history of baby led weaning and the future of baby led weaning. And the biggest myths about baby led weaning. So she's the person who, she hates it when we say this, but invented baby led weaning. So I'd like to say she founded the philosophy, the movement baby led weaning. As you know it today is only what it is because of the work that Gill Rapley did. So I wanted to ask her, where did baby-led weaning get its name?

Katie Ferraro (3m 37s):

So if you like words, I love words. My husband makes fun of me cause like I stink at numbers, but I'll like rock a crossword puzzle, just a words person. And Gill Rapley loves words. She's British, I'm American. So the terms of weaning mean different things to us. We're going to kind of go through some of the semantics and the differences in terminology and why it's called baby-led weaning, and just kind of a fun conversation about the words that we choose around feeding our babies and just an opportunity to hear from Gill Rapley. I'm always so gracious when she shares the history of baby led weaning with us, but she's also working on some really exciting current projects as well. So with no further ado here is Gill Rapley talking about how baby led weaning got its name.

Gill Rapley, PhD (4m 23s):

Thank you for inviting me again. I love speaking to you.

Katie Ferraro (4m 25s):

So as the pioneer of baby led weaning, could you give us a little background or insight into your choice of the name baby led weaning? How did that come to be?

Gill Rapley, PhD (4m 37s):

Well, we can talk a little bit later about the meaning of the word weaning, but in the UK, which is where I'm based is generally taken to me in the introduction of solid foods. And so I was just describing what I saw by method about an approach, which allowed the baby to make the decisions. And to me it matched when babies decided to walk or crawl or talk or whatever, that's within the baby's gift to make that decision. And I saw that happening with babies who are allowed to start feeding solids when they wanted to. So I didn't, I didn't know that it was going to become a thing. So I wasn't choosing a name in order to be like a slogan. I was just describing what I saw. So it's not very exciting or romantic, but that's how it came about.

Katie Ferraro (5m 19s):

Sometimes those are the best stories. Like no, that's what it is. The baby is leading the way and they're weeding and we will get to the talk about weaning in a second. One thing I love in the past when we've spoken is that when you shared your history of kind of how this philosophy approach movement came to be, you sometimes say that it wasn't that the baby didn't like the food. It didn't like the feeding that was being done to them. And I think that for a lot of parents, that's where baby led weaning clicks for them. Oh, I don't have to do this to have the baby because the baby can do it to themselves.

Gill Rapley, PhD (5m 52s):

Yeah. Yeah. I enjoy words and it occurs to me that actually feeding can mean two things. We talk about feeding a baby or feeding our family. But when we talk about animals feeding, we're talking about them eating. So when babies and we have this thing about breastfeeding, do we feed babies at the breast or two babies feed at the breast? It's just a bit of a minefield and fascinating to me, but yes, in general, feeding seems to have the connotation that sort of something being done to the baby. So weaning is different from that.

Katie Ferraro (6m 22s):

And in our content, you know, we're certainly in an era where we're examining all of the choice of words that we use breast milk versus human milk, and now, you know, breast and chest feeding and, you know, trying to incorporate so many different approaches to building a family, feeding a family, raising a family, and even the word feeding, which I think a lot of people just slides off their tongue, but we've actually switched to using the word offer whenever possible. So cut the foods into strips the size of your adult pinky finger and offer it to the baby instead of feeding to the baby. Cause which to some parents might mean shoving that food in the baby's mouth, which is certainly not aligned with the baby led approach.

Gill Rapley, PhD (7m 5s):

Yeah, absolutely. It's all about offering in the same way you would offer to another adult or to an older child.

Katie Ferraro (7m 10s):

Can we talk about the word weaning? It tends to mean different things depending upon whether you're in the United States as I am or the United Kingdom as you are. And I'm sure other parts of the world have different interpretations. What does weaning mean to you? Jill Rapley from the UK?

Gill Rapley, PhD (7m 28s):

I think to start with what it doesn't mean, or just backpedal a little bit and talk about what you've just said, that the, how it means different things in different places. So at one end of the spectrum, we've got folk, I believe in America. And I know in other places they will talk about winning the baby of the breast onto the bottle. So it's all about the breast. I prefer to think about if we were in the, onto a bottle, then we we're talking about that being a breast milk substitute, which is what formula milk is. So actually we should think of those together because what we're really talking about from a thought, as I see it is not just the food it's about the baby's vulnerability and dependence on the mom, or obviously if you're formula feeding or, or feeding offering breast milk bottle bottle, that can be the other parent too, but it's about the baby and what he or she needs and how dependent they are on an adult for the nutrition and to keep them safe.

Gill Rapley, PhD (8m 24s):

And that's something that's changing it's around six months, which is why we now have six months as a minimum age. So it's not just to do it, how the adult is offering or giving food to the baby. It's about the baby and his needs. Then the other end, we have the meaning of weaning as the end is breastfeeding or somewhat, I'll be formula feeding as well. But that very last breastfeed, some people call that weening. The best way I have to think about it is that it's both, it's both of those things and it's everything in between. So winning is a process, a long process. It's going to take a minimum of a few bumps and a maximum of, of many months, 18 months or even years.

Gill Rapley, PhD (9m 3s):

And it's about that baby relinquishing his dependence on the parent for that level of nutrition and safety from illness and so on. And that's going to take a long time. Now there's always been books written about the end of breastfeeding and whether that should be child led, who, who makes that decision, can the moms say I've had enough now and so on, and it's recognized that the baby might be the one to make that decision. And maybe in some, without you should be at the other end when he has his first mouth full of something, which is not breast milk or formula that is winning. That is the beginning. The very, very beginning of that change in his dependence on the mom. How often does he get a say about when that should happen?

Gill Rapley, PhD (9m 46s):

That's been nearly always decided for him. And I wanted to embrace that sense that this is a process for him that begins at a point that we haven't always recognized. And the other meaning of leaning is the end of breastfeeding happens much later. Quite a lot of of authors do actually emphasize both ends of weigh in and say that it's that whole process. And what we, what is talked about in some cases like in the UK, the first mouth that of solids is actually just the beginning of weening. And what is talked about in terms of the end of breastfeeding is the end of the evening, but not of the bees. We make everything in between.

Katie Ferraro (10m 22s):

And I love that it's not black and white. It's a gray area. You mentioned it's a process. I sometimes say, it's a continuum. We're helping your baby move along with ultimately, I'm a dietitian. So I'm always coming at it from a nutrition standpoint. You start out when your baby is getting all of their nutrition from infant milk, be that breast milk and or formula. And we're working towards a time around the one year mark, where baby will get the majority of their nutrition from food and be less reliant on infant milk. Now, when is it a hundred percent? Does it switch off? That varies for many different babies, but babies need those weening months, that practice period, to get more proficient at achieving nutrition from food.

Katie Ferraro (11m 2s):

Cause they don't wake up on their six-month birthday and magically know how to eat a hundred different foods. And yet I'm still surprised. We even had one of the gals who works for us. She has a background in tech. She had her first baby and she was doing a lot of the implementation stuff for us and starting getting ready to start solid foods with her baby. She called me the night before they were going to start and said, Katie, I'm so sad. Does this mean it's my last time breastfeeding? If we start solid foods together and I just put my head in my hands, cause I thought, am I doing a terrible job of educating about this topic? Because no, we don't just flip the switch and turn off breast milk and turn on food. It's a month long period. And it really helped us kind of change the language that we use in educating because not all parents know that.

Katie Ferraro (11m 43s):

And so I think it's important to keep remessaging and resharing this message that it's a long period and it's a gradual transition and nothing's happening overnight here. Gill, how do feel about some people referring to baby led feeding versus weaning? I, again, personally and professionally try to avoid using the term feeding since the implication there would be the parent is doing the feeding to the baby, but in your eyes, is there a big difference between baby led feeding and baby led weaning? Or are we basically talking about the same thing here?

Gill Rapley, PhD (12m 13s):

I don't think there's really a difference in where it's coming from. The concept of being baby led, responding to the baby it's felt responsive, feeding or parenting care, but I'm not happy using the term baby led feeding to describe what I see is baby led reading because maybe there's feeding is broader than that. And that term was already in use in relation to breast and formula feeding before baby led weaning was born. So that term was already out there. It's not specific enough for me to apply just to the business of solid feeding and the change over from total reliance on milk to total reliance on other foods.

Gill Rapley, PhD (12m 54s):

And that's the bit that I want to encapsulate. So the concept, the motivation, the understanding of what it means to be responsive and allow the baby to lead way spans all of that. But in terms of using the word baby, that feeding because it has to cover both the uniqueness of the weaning period is lost. If we just stopped for that.

Katie Ferraro (13m 14s):

And I know sometimes it's just a matter of semantics, but in the United States, I don't know if you're familiar with the WIC program, our women, infant and children program, and for the listeners, if you have not heard of it, about half of all babies born in the United States participate in the WIC program and it's a government nutrition assistance program that provides education and financial resources for pregnant and postpartum and breastfeeding women and then infant and children up to age five to get nutritious foods, et cetera. So I speak at our state WIC associations around the country every year, about many topics related to baby led weaning and infant feeding. And yet, because it's this very large government program and they have all these guidelines, they don't love the term baby led weaning.

Katie Ferraro (13m 59s):

So whenever I pitched the topics, I learned very quickly if it said baby led weaning and the title, oh no, sorry. We're not allowed to talk about that. Okay. So we would change the topic to a baby led approach to weaning, and then all of a sudden they would accept the proposal and we could speak and teach about it because it's so very much aligned with responsive feeding. And the WIC program is very well known for doing a great job of educating parents about responsive, breastfeeding, responsive, bottle-feeding responsive feeding and solid foods, which has changed the name of it. And they're open to learning about it as well as all of the research that supports this approach. I just always think it's funny. You have to, in some groups, you know, sometimes play the game. And that might just mean switching around a few of the words.

Gill Rapley, PhD (14m 37s):

I think that's the same in, in some other countries too, in the UK, certainly it's the case that baby led weaning is not that formerly advocated, but as things have changed over the last 20 years, people have self into the ideas and listen to what baby they're reading was saying about if babies have skill to feed themselves, why would you be to do it to them, such that the general advice now on our national health service or websites. And so on what we describe is almost baby led weaning

Katie Ferraro (15m 8s):

100%. And the research that they site is very often Amy Brown's research and it says baby led weaning in the title of the publication.

Gill Rapley, PhD (15m 16s):

Yeah. It's just because it's seen as a sort of cult thing. They don't want to use that phrase.

Katie Ferraro (15m 21s):

And I might add a small way in, at least here in the United States is that the USDA's food and nutrition service. So they have an infant nutrition and feeding guide that WIC uses. And in the latest revision, there is a little side box that says baby led weaning, and you wouldn't notice it in a massive multi hundred page document, but when it showed up, I said, this is everything. That's where it starts. It's the crack in the door where we're citing the research that supports a baby led approach to starting solid foods because there is, it is not a cult. There is a real, incredible body of research that supports this and seeing that incorporated into the government program that serves almost half of the babies in the United States is incredibly important. Although it is certainly a very small step.

Gill Rapley, PhD (16m 1s):

I think one of the problems or issues is that it's, it is a whole different mindset. And if we're going to come at it from the angle of the baby, which is what I like to think of it as then we actually have to change so much of the language that is currently used to describe the way that should introduce solid foods to their babies. And one of the big things for me is the signs of readiness. You know, why do you need signs of readiness? Unless you're planning to do something to the baby and you need to know when is the right time or when might be too early or too late, you don't look for signs of readiness before you give the baby the opportunity to walk. You just give him the opportunity to walk and if he's not ready, he doesn't do it.

Gill Rapley, PhD (16m 43s):

If we would just take the same approach to eating and give our babies the opportunity to pick up food, if they're not able to, they won't do it. And what saddens me is that still in the UK often talked about as a sign of readiness, is that the baby can swallow the food, but that demands that someone put it in their mouth. Otherwise, how are you going to test that? And as you have alluded to, there's so much learning that needs to go on, it's not all about eating. It's such a pity. If babies are denied that early period of just looking at food and munching on it and spitting it out and, and just getting acquainted with it, just because they're not actually eating, maybe it's because I'm not a nutritionist, but I really am more focused on the child development aspect of it and the baby's experience.

Gill Rapley, PhD (17m 30s):

And I know how food is so much more than just actually eating it on digestion. So, and if babies have that opportunity to explore food and get to know it and make discoveries about it before they need to eat it, that allows them the time so that the pressure is not on them to eat it. So I don't like the fact that they apparently have to be ready to swallow the food before they're allowed to even touch it. That's a sadness for me. And it's one of the things that I think is an example of how the whole mindset needs to change if we're really going to embrace.

Katie Ferraro (18m 3s):

And if I can add somewhere where dietitians need to change the mindset, and I know this, I am college nutrition professor, and I teach our future professionals about nutrition throughout the life cycle. And yet in the 15th edition of the textbook that we use, they still talk about starting solid foods by pushing a spoon of rice cereal into a baby's mouth. And that's wrong on so many levels. It is so outdated. And yet it's, what's in the curriculum and dietitians, I would argue, get this focus on how much the baby's eating and they push these messages that stress parents out. When, how could you possibly expect a solid food to provide nutrition for a baby before the baby even knows how to eat it? So we need to do a better job of understanding the developmental changes that are occurring in the latter half of infancy, as we go to craft and tailor our messages for teaching parents about making this transition.

Katie Ferraro (18m 48s):

And that's why it's so important that infant feeding be approached from a multidisciplinary approach, the developmental people aren't equipped to deal with it on their own, the SLPs, the occupational therapist, the dieticians, we all need to be working in tandem because there are so many things going on in this really important transitional period for the baby.

Gill Rapley, PhD (19m 4s):

And if we all start with the baby, then we can work together with no problem.

Katie Ferraro (19m 8s):

It's less work. If you let the baby do the thing that they were allowed to do, that's what I always try to tell parents. And they come back, you know, you are right. This is less work. This is less stress. And it is true because when they're ready to do it, they'll do what they are physiologically, capable of doing. It is on us to make sure, you know, it's safe and we're offering the foods properly and get a variety. But that comes later, your baby needs lots of time to practice. Yeah. You mentioned when we were talking a little bit about verbiage here, this episode, I would start a separate episode. That's like words in my language I've changed. And what I learned from Gill Rapley, a few things you talk about, and I, you mentioned the signs of readiness and how kind of silly the concept is in and of itself. But I've heard you say the reliable signs of readiness to eat. And I like that choice of the words, and we've done other episodes and I'll link to them where you explain why, you know, the tongue thrust and disappearance of the tongue thrust reflex is kind of a moot point at six months of age because it hearkens back to an era of when we started solid foods at four months.

Katie Ferraro (19m 60s):

So I love that choice of the word reliable. The other one you use is infant milk. So infant milk encompassing, both human milk and infant formula. I know you are a breastfeeding expert and advocate, and I just liked the term infant mill kind of makes everybody comfortable. And we're talking about solid foods here, but we're acknowledging that infant milk is still providing the majority of babies nutrition as we go through the weaning process. So the words we choose do matter, and I think you'd do a wonderful job of teaching us about the words. And I wanted to ask you if baby led weaning is baby led and the introduction of solid foods in recent history has been parent led. What do you call the opposite of baby led weaning when you are speaking and writing and teaching about baby led weaning,

Gill Rapley, PhD (20m 46s):

I'm tending to use parents a little bit nowadays because it seems okay to say that, but it was a bit scary in the beginning. It's founded rather efficient as the parents were somehow going to be aggressive with their babies, but it is what it is is that, but mostly I tend to talk about conventional leaning. The word I don't use is traditional. And also people use the word traditional learning as the, as being the opposite. If you'd like a baby led weaning, but tradition depends on the culture that you grow up in traditions vary throughout the world. And many, many cultures traditionally would let their babies feed themselves to a much greater degree than the U S or the UK. Anyway. So I, don't not traditional because we don't know what that means for an individual person, but conventional in terms of Western current welcome society, that that's probably a reasonable word.

Gill Rapley, PhD (21m 36s):

It's not just about spoon-feeding and it's not just about purees. That's the other thing I think that's important. And it's why I don't use those words because those are feeding methods and spoonfeeding, if you like is the opposite of self-feeding sure is the sort of opposite of offering whole pieces of food, if you want to make it black and white, but neither of those things is the opposite of baby led weaning or baby led. Weaning is an approach which encompasses self-feeding and handheld foods and shed mealtimes with adults and children together, and choices of good food and respect for the baby's appetite. It's much wider than simply spoonfeeding, maybe Led Weaning is an approach which trusts the baby and leaves him whether he he's ready to eat how much he wants to eat, which fits, who wants to eat.

Gill Rapley, PhD (22m 26s):

And it's that trust that isn't quite there. If we're spoon-feeding, especially if we're trying to give the baby a few spoonfuls at the end of a meal, just to make sure he's had enough that takes away the baby, by all means, do a combination of spoonfeeding and self feeding. But that is probably actually what conventional leaning is. If you start at six months, it's not baby led weaning. And actually the name matters not just for, to be sure that parents understand each other, because if one parent has it from another parent who did something slightly different, we'll actually baby led weaning is gets distorted, but it also matters hugely for research. We're not going to be able to show whether baby led weaning has benefits in terms of health and long-term relationship with food.

Gill Rapley, PhD (23m 7s):

If we aren't defining it correctly, because we can't compare it within the, an alternative.

Katie Ferraro (23m 12s):

And I think that's a very important point. It's the research that will drive the acceptance of this approach. When we continue to see the data that supports this as a viable and safe alternative to, as you say, conventional parent led spoon-feeding. And if you guys are interested more in the concept of combo feeding, I think Gill is very eloquent in the way she puts it. And we did a separate interview on episode 200, it was called a Combo Feeding: Can I do BLW Plus Traditional Spoonfeeding Together? And now that I look at that title, I think, gosh, shoot, we should change that to conventional. And that was with Gill Rapley and she explains more about that. That's in episode 200. So Gill, I am guilty of this, but I am a fast talker. And I have heard people say that when I introduced the concept of baby led weaning, they sometimes hear baby linguini.

Katie Ferraro (23m 59s):

So I'm curious if when you are starting your career, if you were starting all over again and you were championing this baby led cause and movement and philosophy and approach, would you still call it baby led weaning, or would you call it something else if you were given the chance to start all over again?

Gill Rapley, PhD (24m 16s):

I think in the early is I might have been rattled. I was a bit rattled by the fact that winning meant different things in different places. But once I found that the confidence to say no weaning begins with the first solid with the last bit of infant milk and it's everything in between. I think actually now I would still choose baby led weaning because it's, it tells us about the baby's agency. It's actually called baby led solids in Australia and that's okay. But again, it only really deals with that end of weaning. And although I don't talk about it much, I'm equally interested in the other end of weaning, the end of infant milk feeding and how the baby is allowed to have a say in that.

Gill Rapley, PhD (24m 60s):

But as I say, people have dealt with that in their policy. So I have mentioned in that area, the beginning that fascinates me more, but I think in order to recognize what winning means to the baby and that whole vulnerability dependence and choice things around the baby, I probably would choose the same words again, if only, just to keep that debate alive about what does winning mean? Not just what does it mean in terms of words, but what does it mean for the baby that would be lost if I chose a different terminology?

Katie Ferraro (25m 32s):

Well, Gill, thank you so much for taking the time to come on and chat about this. I know it's kind of a different sort of topic, but I was just so interested in hearing the history of, of how this whole approach came to be. And I like that the term baby led weaning, despite other things that might fluctuate in research that comes out, it's consistently been what you've called it since you first coined the term. And I appreciate your forthrightness of no, you can't do combo feeding. No, it's not baby led feeding. It's not traditional that we're against it's conventional or, you know, I like that you stand your ground. If they get an arrow where, and especially a lot of people are so well, if they don't like this, I'm going to change this word. You're very consistent in your language in that that's important.

Katie Ferraro (26m 13s):

And one thing where I see that really shining through is you've always been an advocate for the importance of waiting until the six months plus when the baby is really ready, it doesn't happen before six months. And you say that confidently, and that gives other parents confidence to say, when they're hearing from, I should start at four months, no, from credentialed feeding professionals who specialize this and have written and spoken and research it extensively. We wait until six months and that's so important. That's why we made baby led weaning day on July 1st, the six month point of the year, because that's the message that you put out there. And when you mentioned, you know, what would conventional spoonfeeding look like if we waited until six months, I hear it every day from parents, Gill, they message us. They email us on workshops.

Katie Ferraro (26m 53s):

They say my baby was annoyed. When I tried to put the spoon in their mouth, they use that term annoying. And I know so much of this is so hard to document because it is subjective and it's anecdotal, but I'll tell you from my experience, working with tens of thousands of moms, now, they say my baby's annoyed. When I try to do that, of course they're annoyed because they can do it for themselves. If we wait until six months of age when they're truly ready.

Gill Rapley, PhD (27m 14s):

And thank you very much for this opportunity to bring together my love of words and my passion for baby led weaning, nobody's really invited me to speak for this length of time on, on those two things, which come together so well. And so that's been a great opportunity. Thank you.

Katie Ferraro (27m 30s):

Well, thank you for sharing your time. I appreciate it. And tell our audience where they can go to learn more about your work.

Gill Rapley, PhD (27m 35s):

Well, I have a website rapleyweaning.com. I also have another one, which is under construction at the moment that I'm devising with Tracey Murkett. I wrote my original books with, and that's all about blw.com. I'm also just finishing a book with Jill Rabin, who has her own website in the states and is active on Instagram, which is focus about baby-led weaning adapted for babies who have feeding challenges. So you can find out more phone Instagram,

Katie Ferraro (28m 3s):

And we'll be having, I think both you and Jill Rabin on together. We're going to talk a little bit when that book comes out a little bit later to learn more about that approach. Jill's been on separately talking about adaptive baby led weaning, but I'm so excited for this book. And I know you guys have been literally burning the midnight oil on it. So I hope the reviews are going well, and I can't wait to see it. Cause I think it's a very important resource for parents around the world who want to take this approach, but have been historically told, oh no, you can't do baby led weaning. If your baby has down syndrome, well, why not here a perfect examples of babies doing it successfully and here's how you do it. And here's how you modify it. And especially for the feeding therapy community, just to have that support of a publication written by you and Jill Rabin is so important. All right. Well thank you so much, Gill.

Gill Rapley, PhD (28m 42s):

Thank you. Bye.

Katie Ferraro (28m 43s):

I love chatting with Gill roughly. I am always so grateful when we get a chance to hear some of the history and also hear about some of the exciting projects that she's working on today. We've had Gill on the podcast a number of times. So if you'd like to learn more from the person who created and laid the foundation for this entire philosophy that you're interested in learning about, I want to share a couple of other episodes that Gill is in and I'll link all of those in the show notes for this episode. So if you go to BLW podcast.com/241, or look below where you're listening to this, you can find that page, but also other episodes, if you're just scrolling back in your podcast, listening app thing, Gill was on, I think it was first in episode 100, we were celebrating the hundredth episode of the baby led weaning podcast.

Katie Ferraro (29m 27s):

That was the first time I interviewed her. So that was an interview called the history of BLW with its founding philosopher, Gill Rapley. That was part one episode 102 is the future of BLW with its founding philosopher, Gill Rapley. That was part two. So that's episode 101 &102. And then she was back on in episode 142 debugging. The biggest BLW myths with Gill rapidly. And then she was on again in episode 200. That was the combo feeding one. That's where, when people say, can I do baby led weaning cluster traditional, which apparently I should call conventional spoonfeeding together. She was like, no, you can't. And it's always a tough question for me to answer and people ask, but she has way better way of saying it because she's the one who graded baby led weaning that's episode 200.

Katie Ferraro (30m 11s):

If you're feeling like I want to do some baby led weaning, but I also want to spoonfeed my baby. She'll tell you why she feels that that's not the best choice, but she also says that not here to tell anybody what to do, but if you're calling it, baby led weaning and you are putting the spoon in your baby's mouth. That is not baby led weaning. She's not saying it's bad to do that, but she's saying, especially from a research standpoint, it's so important that we define what baby led weaning is. And then also she was on an episode. Well, this one 241, How did Baby Led Weaning Get its Name with Gill Rapley? That's the rundown of the Gill Rapley episode. She also is the keynote speaker at our baby led weaning summit. She'll be speaking again at this year's baby led weaning summit. More information on that is coming up shortly and she'll be back on the podcast in a few episodes with Jill Rabin, the adapted baby led weaning expert.

Katie Ferraro (30m 51s):

Who's also a speech language pathologist and Jill and Gill wrote a book together. They're going to be sharing about how they came to write a book cross Atlantic in the middle of a pandemic, but I'm so excited for this book and can't wait to share it with you guys. So thanks so much for listening. See ya. Next time had to be able to be podcast.com search rapidly. It'll do a much more concise job of showing you everywhere, where she's been on the podcast. Take care. Bye now.