Alexandra Parry (0s):

Dogs are a great family pad and certainly will be great companion to our babies. But, the most important takeaway is that when we are starting solids with our babies, when the children are feeding, really the dog should be in a separate area of the house.

Katie Ferraro (16s):

Hey, there I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietitian, college nutrition professor, and mom of seven, specializing in baby led weaning. Here on the baby led weaning made easy podcast. I help you strip out all the noise and nonsense about feeding, leading you with the competence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby led weaning. Hey guys, welcome back. All right. Today's episode. This is epic. I don't love dogs. I'll be the first one to admit that I don't dislike them. I just don't like them. And I've never had a dog, but I'm scared of them, but you guys love dogs.

Katie Ferraro (58s):

And I know that because every time I post something about cleaning up after the baby led weaning mess, that you're all like, why don't you just get a dog? So I'm not going to get a dog, but I am going to bring a dog expert, a veterinarian. Dr. Alexandra Parry is joining me today. You guys, she's amazing. She loves babies and she loves dogs and she actually has a nine month old baby Oakley. He's adorable. She has an Instagram account for him, by the way, you need to go follow it. It's @Oakes.eats. Great account. This baby just turned nine months of age. So at the time of this recording, he's like just halfway through his a hundred first foods. Lots of good stuff on the account. The mom knows a lot about dogs though. And so she's on her maternity leave.

Katie Ferraro (1m 39s):

She's at a cabin in Canada. She's from Canada and Dr. Allie Parry is going to blow your mind with all of her knowledge about some baby led weaning do's and don'ts for, as we say, the whole furry family, because I mean, I think the extent of my knowledge about dogs and food was that they should not have chocolate. She blows it out of the water with all the other things that dogs should not eat that I didn't know, but she leaves us with some really positive messages about how dogs can be obviously a part of the family. Yet there are some precautions we need to take in order to keep the baby safe and to keep the dog safe. So I hope you guys enjoy this episode. BLW do's and don'ts for the whole furry family. This is with Dr. Alexandra Parry.

Katie Ferraro (2m 19s):

All right, well hello Allie. Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

Alexandra Parry (2m 22s):

Thanks for having me, Katie.

Katie Ferraro (2m 24s):

All right. So as a mom of a baby led weaning baby, I know he's nine months this week and you're a veterinarian. I am so grateful that you're here to talk about the do's and don'ts of feeding babies with dogs in the family. So in our household, we have seven kids, but no dog. And in all honesty, that's because I'm actually quite scared of dogs. So I know you have a personal story about being bit by a dog when you were younger. And I was wondering if you could share a bit just about general safety regarding dogs, for families with babies, please. Is there like anything that you recommend that we know?

Alexandra Parry (2m 53s):

Absolutely. I mean, I would say the number one thing put simply as really a child should never be at an animal's eye level. Basically, as soon as you get down to a dog's eye level, you kind of become their equal. And when we're talking about babies, they're using their hands, their feet, their mouth to explore the world around them. And ultimately that includes the dogs in their world too. And really as nice, loving, and gentle as a dog may be, there is a chance that one day that, you know, that dog might not be feeling well, they might be getting a little bit older or they just had enough of that baby exploring all over them. And typically when that happens, dogs will give some sort of warning signs or thought that behavior.

Alexandra Parry (3m 36s):

Sometimes it is as obvious as a growl or a bark. Sometimes it may just be them getting really quiet or hunting their back up, putting their tail between their legs. But there are those signs that we can watch for as parents. As responsible pet owners, however, at the very minimum parents really should be aware of those signs that they are specific dog tends to give. Unfortunately, and I see it too much in my line of work is a lot of people aren't able to recognize some of those more subtle cues and a lot of dogs end up getting pushed past their comfort zone. In extreme cases, this can actually result in the dog resorting to biting just to get that behavior to stop.

Alexandra Parry (4m 18s):

And when we're talking about our sweet little babies, that's just the last thing that we want to see happen.

Katie Ferraro (4m 24s):

Okay that's so interesting cause there's something totally different from feeding infants, as far as your relationship with your baby versus your dog. It's something totally similar that I heard. So with babies, we want to get right at their eye level when we're feeding them. So we always tell parents, you know, get down there, you have to hunch down, get right at your baby's eye level. You demonstrate how you bring the food to your mouth, be dramatic with your chewing. So you're right at their, in their face. But it sounds like what you're saying is we don't want the dog right up in your baby's face. Right?

Alexandra Parry (4m 48s):

Exactly. And although we might be getting up to baby face and I do it myself, especially when I was first starting baby led weaning with Oakley and doing those exaggerated chews right up in his face. We don't want our dogs getting up in those babies faces. And we know it comes back to those cues that the dogs might be showing or giving us, telling their owners that they want something to stop. So really the number one thing that we do want to remember is to always really respect these cues that our dogs are giving us when they want a behavior to stop. And for example, if a dog is growling at a baby from them pulling their tail, the average dog, if they get scolded did doing that, they will learn not to growl.

Alexandra Parry (5m 33s):

You know, an obedient dog. If they're told not to do something, they'll learn not to do that behavior. And unfortunately, and I see this all too often is many people will take that to mean that the dog is now tolerating the baby, oh, look how cute they are together. He's not growling anymore. Now they're friends. But what parents really need to be aware of is that this apparent tolerance may actually be setting your baby up for a traumatic experience in the future, whether it is as a baby or even as you become a older child, Myself for example, I was actually 12 years old when I was bit by my own dog at home. So it really is something that does touch quite close to home for me.

Katie Ferraro (6m 16s):

So you were 12 so that we can learn if you don't mind sharing, was there something that you did to provoke that, or I would assume sometimes the behavior can't be explained?

Alexandra Parry (6m 25s):

All right. And so when dogs are not allowed to express those warning signs anymore, and when they been taught and learned to not growl, if a baby is pulling on their tail, yanking on their fur. What happens is when a dog has had enough and they know they are not supposed to growl, that apparent tolerance is actually going to turn very quickly from them lying down, apparently tolerating a baby to suddenly turning and biting to get that behavior to stop. So as scary as sometimes it can be to see a little growl from a dog in all honesty, that is what we want them to do. It's their way of communicating with us that they want something to stop.

Alexandra Parry (7m 5s):

We can really use that as a cue to remove the dog from a scenario that they're not liking, especially when the baby's involved, because we don't want those babies to get caught in the crossfire. Really to put it simply the best way to completely stop that is to not have a baby at a dog's eye level, whether it is on the ground, on a bed. But what I do want to emphasize is not holding a dog for showing those warning cues, because if they stop doing those cues one day, they might seem like they're tolerating it. And suddenly the next step will turn from quietly tolerating it to a bite. And that's the last thing we want.

Katie Ferraro (7m 42s):

Wow that's fascinating because there's so many similarities there with infant feeding in that as parents, we need to learn to recognize and be able to respond to our baby's fullness cues. So when our baby is giving us really subtle signs that they're getting full, or even that they're getting hungry too, but knowing those cues for your own baby's hunger and fullness, another cue you need to recognize it sounds like, is knowing your dog's cues for when they're becoming agitated or I don't know what emotions dogs have not being a dog person, but cues seem to be important for animals as well.

Alexandra Parry (8m 15s):

Absolutely. And I mean, really they can have all their emotions as we view it. That's funny, you know, you touch on for did the similarities to baby feeding and babies in general with dogs because that's something I say quite regularly. And I actually, before going into veterinary medicine had considered pediatrics and I always kind of draw on the similarities because you know, with dogs, when we practice medicine, they're you know, they can't tell us what's wrong either. And we need to rely a lot more on sort of our physical exams and our skills to sort of deduce what is going on with the dogs. And it's quite similar with babies, whether it's in the medical world or at home watching their cues.

Katie Ferraro (8m 54s):

All right, let's talk a little about the mess because as a mom, who's in the thick of it. I know you know that baby led weaning is messy. And as a dietitian specializing in baby led weaning, I always try to remind parents and caregivers: our goal is not to eliminate the mess ,it's to allow the baby the opportunity to learn how to eat during the weaning period, but we can minimize the mess. So whenever I do a post about minimizing the master writer article, I'm talking about things like use a splash mat and a full coverage bid, but like 50% of the comments I get, no joke are why don't you just get a dog? So I'm curious in your professional opinion, is it even safe to have dogs licking food off at the baby's fingers or face or after they eat? Could you talk a little bit about the dogs as it pertains to the mess?

Alexandra Parry (9m 35s):

Absolutely. And I mean, to answer that question in one word, I would say, no, it's something that, you know, I often see their comments as well on those types of posts, about getting a dog to clean up the mess. And unfortunately I would have to professionally, you know, see that it really isn't the best way. And I am much more on the camp of enjoying slash mat and full coverage fit instead of sending the dog in. And they're kind of a few reasons for that. I mean, we touched a little bit on the safety of babies getting down at a dogs levels. So certainly if a dog is licking food off of a baby, I mean, it doesn't take long for them to get carried away with looking food off of a baby or eating as a noise has gone off in the background or something has bumped the dog.

Alexandra Parry (10m 22s):

It can only take a second to spook the dog. And the last thing you want is where your baby's fingers or a face full of food to be near our dogs. Now, if that does happen. So certainly a baby's safety is one thing that I do worry about when the dog is potentially licking food off of whether it's the baby's fingers or their face. But in addition to things just like a bite that we're talking about. The other thing we do really need to recognize is that there is understandably a lot of bacteria found in dogs mouths. So, you know, we have kind of the average bacteria just like in our own mouth that is sometimes found, but a lot of dogs can actually have intestinal worms or parasites.

Alexandra Parry (11m 5s):

And some of these things can actually be carried in their saliva. So one thing that we'll often see, for example, the parasite called Giardia, and this is a zoonotic disease, which means it can be spread from animals to people. And a lot of dogs can actually not be showing any symptoms, but be carrying this disease. And if they are licking themselves and we all know where dogs might be licking before they come and see us, if they're licking themselves and then go to lick your baby after that, whether that's directly onto your baby's face, or if they lick your baby's hands, if they're getting the food off, we know all too well that your baby's hands are very shortly going to go in their own mouth.

Alexandra Parry (11m 48s):

It's a very easy way that that dogs can transmit those zoonotic disease. And certainly a common one is the parasite Giardia and that something that can cause severe intestinal upset. And that's certainly not anything that we want our babies to be going through, especially when they are just learning and being exposed to new foods as well. So another concern that we do have with our dogs to getting into any food that might be dropped from the baby's high chair, other than toxicities are either them getting into foods that may be different from their regular diet. Certainly many dogs that have allergies actually eat hydrolyzed protein diet for just like our babies who are on a hypoallergenic formula and getting into just the smallest amount of food that is not their prescription diet can really mess up their management of those medical conditions.

Alexandra Parry (12m 41s):

Another thing we will commonly see are what's known as foreign bodies, and this is basically a dog ingesting something they're not supposed to, and it can get stuck in their stomach or intestines creating a blockage which actually might require surgery to remove it. Honestly, this is probably one of the most common non routine surgeries I do. And with all the toys that come along with kids and babies, when we're talking specifically about baby led weaning, there are lots of tools that get used there as well, whether it is a spoon or a bib, but with either of those items, especially if they have a little bit of food left over, it would not take much encouragement for a dog to try to swallow that whole.

Alexandra Parry (13m 30s):

And a one breed will call me when they see that with our Labrador retrievers, they are notorious foreign body dogs as anybody with a lab test, they eat pretty much anything. And I can just about guarantee that a lab would swallow a tiny spoon in a heartbeat if they had the chance. So certainly another reason that we do want to keep the dogs away from the feeding table or away from the high chair while babies are eating

Katie Ferraro (13m 57s):

Okay something I've also always wondered is can dogs have food allergies?

Alexandra Parry (14m 2s):

Absolutely. And to be honest, it's probably one of the most common conditions I treat in dogs. The food allergies in dogs are a little bit different than in babies in that we don't tend to have anaphylactic reaction. We can get anaphylactic allergic reactions to insects in dogs. But when we talk about food allergies, it more commonly causes skin issues. And one of the most common symptoms is feeling itchiness, and a lot of dogs will have a varying degree of with mild food sensitivity. They might just have some very minimal itching, but with severe cases, it can be so bad that the dogs end up getting skin infections from scratching themselves so badly.

Alexandra Parry (14m 47s):

And we often then reach for prescription hypoallergenic foods. So just like babies who go on a hydrolyzed protein formula, we actually use hydrolyzed protein diets in dogs with food allergies as well.

Katie Ferraro (15m 0s):

Is it even safe for dogs to be eating human food, or there's toxicities that from our food, like you said, the babies can get illnesses from the dogs, but could we be harming the dog from our food, transferring it that way?

Alexandra Parry (15m 12s):

Absolutely. And I mean, that is obviously kind of more so my area of expertise, but there are a few toxicities, like you said, I mean, pretty much every dog owner and everyone that is not a dog owner does know that chocolate is toxic to dogs, but there are lots of other ones that most pet owners I would say don't know about. And a common one is actually grapes. So grapes can cause a life-threatening acute kidney failure in dogs. And the interesting thing about this toxicity, or rather unfortunate is that we still don't quite understand the way in which this toxicity happens or even what the toxic dose is.

Alexandra Parry (15m 54s):

And so what I mean by that is we don't know how many grapes it will take to cause a dog to go into this kidney failure. And it varies between dogs, not just based on their size as well. So a small chihuahua may eat a handful of grapes prepared safely for your baby and not go into kidney failure. And yet we might have a large, great thing eat just one or two grapes and they could go into severe kidney failure. And with that, sometimes a dog might not even recover after multiple tests in the hospital, multiple days in a hospital on supportive care.

Alexandra Parry (16m 36s):

And it's really something that can be avoided simply by not having the dog in the area where the baby is eating. Because as you know, all too well with seven kids food, it does inevitably get dropped on the ground and a great third, something that easily can fall on the ground and have the dogs get into when that does happen too.

Katie Ferraro (16m 56s):

Besides grapes and chocolate, are there other foods that we should definitely make sure dogs don't get?

Alexandra Parry (17m 0s):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the other one that comes to mind when we're talking about foods that our babies are likely to eat eating is also onions and garlic. And in that same family, I mean, we do have leeks and chives, but they don't tend to carry the same toxic compounds or for the same amount that we have in garlic and onion. So I don't worry as much about those two, but garlic and onions are something that can cause a severe anemia in both our dogs and cats. And this toxicity is actually a lot worse than cats. So I mean, most people, you know, kind of think about sending their dog in to clean up after the baby is done eating, but myself, you know, I have a cat at home and he often will try to come by if we don't have them in a separate area of the house.

Alexandra Parry (17m 53s):

And the last thing we want is either types of those animals, setting into drops, pieces of garlic or onion. When we talk about the toxic dose for that too, for example, looking at my hands, it can only take about one and a half tablespoons of chopped onion for the average cat to actually experience the toxics dose and start having cell damage causing this anemia. So it's really not much before they will get quite sick.

Katie Ferraro (18m 21s):

And you might be wondering if you're just starting out with solids, like, oh, big deal. My baby doesn't eat onions and garlic, but in the first few weeks and months you do single solitary foods, but usually around the eight month mark, when babies get their pincer grasp, they're comfortable with different textures. You move on to those combination foods. A lot of the foods that you're preparing may have onions and garlic. So that's a really important consideration. And I think a lot of parents are not aware of. So thank you for sharing that. So in the content I create for baby led weaning, I really try hard not to come across as anti dog, but it is important when a baby is learning how to eat that we minimize distractions to the greatest extent possible. We want to reduce choking risks. And secondly, we want the baby to have the opportunity to focus on learning how to eat.

Katie Ferraro (19m 1s):

So I usually say, you know, no iPad, no electronics, no toys at the table, but even a dog at the baby's feet can be very distracting. How do you personally and professionally feel as a mom of a baby led weaning baby, but also as a veterinarian, how do you feel about the dog being in the room where the baby is actively eating?

Alexandra Parry (19m 17s):

Absolutely. I mean, I know what you mean, and I have a hard time because I certainly don't want to come across as saying dogs and babies don't mix because the truth is they are great family pets, but when it comes down to dogs and baby led weaning, they just really, aren't the great combination that many people see them as. So I certainly can understand the draw and just having the dog coming to clean. But when we're talking about distractions at the table, just in the same way that you say on iPad or toys can cause distractions, I would only argue that dogs or cats for that matter, may cause even being more of a distraction at the dinner table or at the high chair, but we don't have a dog at my house, but our cat will actually come out to the dining room table on occasion.

Alexandra Parry (20m 3s):

And I can see the change in my son instantly, as soon as he shows up in the room, even if he's not that close to my son's high chair, he will be drawn to whatever the cat is doing and become too mesmerized by her cat to even pay attention to eating or he'll start dropping food on the floor and probably more so with dogs than with cats, they will instantly become that baby's new best friend, if it means new treats coming their way. So certainly the distractions that they are for the baby really does affect the child's safety as well. If therdog is preventing them from focusing on eating and you know, all too well, actually in those early days of baby led weaning, we need our babies to focus on eating, to prevent choking episodes as well.

Katie Ferraro (20m 52s):

And I have to give it to you straight because your baby is nine months of age and you're in like the golden age of baby led weaning. But next month, usually when babies hit about the 10 month mark is when they start messing with you, their intake will go down a little bit. They're not growing as rapidly as they had been a few months ago. And they start doing things to get your attention, to get your goat. So they will start dropping food on the floor, feeding the food to the dog. So it might get a little bit rocky in the next month or two, just know it's around the corner. And I think you're right. Not having the dog or the cat there during the active feeding is ideal from a safety standpoint and from a learning how to eat standpoint. I want to ask if you could share with us, I don't know if it's the same for like all types of dogs, but are there some standard warning signals or signs that dogs put out when they're uncomfortable?

Katie Ferraro (21m 34s):

Like what should we look for if they're getting uncomfortable? You mentioned growling, but beyond that.

Alexandra Parry (21m 39s):

Yeah. So growing is certainly the number one. And I mean, it really does vary between dog and it wouldn't be something that is specific to certain breeds. Some breeds are more vocal than others. You know, our hound dogs do tend to be loud in general, so they might be more inclined to give out a ba, but I would say it more so depends on your dog's temperament. So those quiet sort of calm dogs might be less likely to give a growl. And instead they might just seem to get really, really quiet or what we'll commonly see is their tail go between their legs, their ears go down, their back gec hunched up. And let's say similar things you can look for with a cat as well too.

Alexandra Parry (22m 19s):

So when we talk about babies, getting down to dog space level, the same applies to cats. So it really is interchangeable there with, you know, we'll often see their tail gets really brushy too, but certainly growling is the number one, but it's really important to pay attention to those quiet, more subtle signs, whether it is getting calm and quiet, getting their back hunched up, sort of backing away or almost cowering from what's happening, Cale going between that legs here is down. I think those are kind of the number one things for most dogs, but it varies a little bit between each one. So knowing your own dog's cues is very important. So ultimately, I mean, dogs are a great family pets and certainly will become great companions to our babies.

Alexandra Parry (23m 1s):

But the most important takeaway I think I would emphasize is that when we are starting solids with our babies and kind of continuing on into their toddlerhood years as well, is that when the children are feeding, really the dogs should be in a separate area of the house. And the most important thing there is that the dog does not see this as a form of punishment. And so what I would recommend is really focusing on what I like to call positive reinforcement with the dog during this time. So if you have a separate area of the house that the dog can go while the kids are eating and ideally this would be somewhere where they can't see the children at the table, whether it's the baby at the chair or pulled up to the table itself so that the kids aren't distracted looking at the dog beyond the baby gate.

Alexandra Parry (23m 53s):

For example, if the dog can be in a separate area of the house, this will prevent both the baby from getting distracted, watching the dog and prevent the dog from getting into food that they should not, that may cause a toxicity from swallowing items that they shouldn't like a small baby spoon or a bib covered in food, but that will keep the dog safer. But in order to do this really safely for the dog, or rather to have it be a positive experience, what we do want is for the dog to have positive reinforcement throughout this. And so what I suggest with that is having a special treat with special toy that the dog that gets only during baby's feeding time.

Alexandra Parry (24m 39s):

If you're able to have the dog in a separate area of the house, bringing in this high value reward that they only get during this time, they will start to make this positive association and they will not see it as a punishment because the last thing you want the dog to associate the baby with any sort of punishment or draw a negative association with the baby. So really having that positive reinforcement for the dog can be very helpful during the transition period when a new baby is in the home,

Katie Ferraro (25m 8s):

Alright so Switching gears, I know you're a vet, but not talking about animals. How is it going with baby led weaning with your own son?

Alexandra Parry (25m 15s):

It's been going really well. We've been having a ton of fun with it. He's been officially doing baby led weaning since he was about 29 weeks, adjusted age and self-feeding since then, and he's been loving every step of it. So we're about to do our 54th food today. So we've already reached the halfway mark, which is quite a hard to believe, to be quite honest. He has actually been enjoying the journey as much as I have, probably more. He does seem to be very food motivated and there actually has not been a food that he hasn't liked yet. So he is kind of gobbling up everything we'll put down.

Alexandra Parry (25m 55s):

And right now we're kind of working on introducing some baby sign language so that he can communicate when he does want more. So this morning at breakfast, actually, he asked for more food. So he ended up getting a third muffin and after already finishing two muffins, two pancakes and four strawberries.

Katie Ferraro (26m 13s):

See, you're following all of his cues. That's fabulous. What's the food of the day going to be the new food. If you don't mind me asking?

Alexandra Parry (26m 18s):

We are doing couscous today. So I think actually we're going to try some fritters. I had seen you had done those as well too. So we've done some panko bread crumbs fritters before, and we've done quinoa nuggets. So I think we'll kind of try to put the couscous in some sort of delivering mechanism, making the cleanup slightly less masculine.

Katie Ferraro (26m 39s):

Yes couscous, I love it. Now the Israeli couscous is a little bit bigger, but it's still pretty small for babies to pick up. So I'm a full fan of couscous fritters, quinoa fritters, cleaning that stuff up by itself is such a pain, but you know, it comes with the territory. So thank you again for all of this fabulous info. Could you just tell us where we can learn more about Oakley's baby led weaning journey?

Alexandra Parry (27m 1s):

Absolutely. Yeah. So we've kind of been documenting his journey on our Insta account. The peg is @Oakes.Eats. So we've kind of been posting when new posts with each food item that he's been trying as we go along

Katie Ferraro (27m 20s):

And you guys, you have to check out Oakley's Instagram. Well, it's really a mom's Instagram, but it's all about Oakley eating. It's fabulous. She has a highlight up top with a intro about baby led weaning and also the eat the eight. So they did all the allergenic foods, just really great photos of the different foods that he's eating. Totally perfect, like size, shape, everything you guys are crushing it. And I love that you also posted a list of the first 40 foods. If you guys are also interested in doing the a hundred first foods approach to baby led weaning, you can grab my list of 100 first foods on my free online workshop, which is called baby led weaning for beginners. It's all about how to get your baby to eat 100 foods before turning one without you having to spoon-feed purees or buy pouches.

Katie Ferraro (28m 0s):

So thank you again, Dr. Alexandra, this has been fabulous. I really appreciate all of the insight to help us. Be safe when we're doing baby led weaning and we also have a dog in the house.

Alexandra Parry (28m 10s):

Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Katie.

Katie Ferraro (28m 13s):

Okay. Wow, Dr. Parry just taught me more in that interview about dogs than I probably have learned in the entirety of my life. So I hope you guys found that interesting. She, I thought did such a nice job of explaining how dogs can be a positive part of our family, but really just driving it home on the safety issue that our baby's safety is still our priority. And there are ways we can incorporate the dog, but it's really just not at mealtime. So I'm going to link in the show notes to her sons, baby led weaning page. His name is Oakley and the Instagram pages at @Oakes.eats, because in addition to being a veterinarian, she's also a mom of a baby led weaning baby.

Katie Ferraro (28m 55s):

So she knows exactly what you guys who do have dogs and babies are going through at the same time. And she's on maternity leave right now. So she's not actively practicing. So we don't have like professional resources of hers to link to, but she asked if I just put Oakley's Instagram there, you're welcome to contact her through DM or messages there. And I will link to that at the show notes for this episode, which is@blwpodcast.com/56. So dog people, this one was for you. I hope you liked this episode. I'm going to have Dr. Perry back on to answer questions about other animals, because I know once the dog episode drops in. All the cat people in the guinea pigs and the hamsters are going to have questions too, about how babies can peacefully and safely mesh with those animals as well.

Katie Ferraro (29m 38s):

So hope you guys love this episode and I will see you next time. Bye now,