Julia Nordgren (0s):

And I let the kids tell me, tell me about the vegetables that you do enjoy. So what I encourage families to do is make a list of those things and making sure that the quantity of fruits and vegetables, even if the variety is minimal, that the quantity gets there.

Katie Ferraro (14s):

Hey, there I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby led weaning. Here on the baby led weaning made easy podcast, I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leaving you with the confidence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby led weaning. Alrighty, well Julia , thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast.

Julia Nordgren (45s):

You're welcome. And as such a pleasure as always to be able to talk to you

Katie Ferraro (50s):

I usually Get to see you because I know we've done a number of Instagram lives together, and this topic that we're going to talk about today, which is writing your family's food story. It really strikes a chord, a good chord with our audience. So I'm so excited that you can be on the podcast. Cause we haven't had a chance to do it in this format to kind of talk about writing our family's food story.

Julia Nordgren (1m 9s):

Yeah and it's a great opportunity because stories happen in so many ways. They happen in writing, they happen on podcasts and they happen with food. So I think this is a perfect segue to our conversation.

Katie Ferraro (1m 19s):

And I love your background because you hear stories. And when I first met you, I heard you telling a story. I first met you at the healthy kitchens, healthy lives conference a number of years ago now. And I was like, oh my gosh, she is a mom. She is also a doctor. She's also a chef. Like this lady is like talking to people on so many different levels, but really your overarching message was about food. So I'm just curious for our audience. Who's not familiar with your story. Could you back it up and just tell us a little bit about your background ? Because you have a very unique skill set that combines a lot of different areas like nobody else on the planet.

Julia Nordgren (1m 52s):

That's so funny. It's really true. Well, well the first funny part that I'm not sure if you know, I was an English major and I always wanted to write and I've always loved books and I've always loved stories. And when it came time to have a career, I really wanted to do something that I know I could support myself. That will be a great career. And in an internship at Brigham and women's hospital, I just fell in love with medicine. And so I took a turn and I went to medical school and I really just fell in love with taking care of families. I always wanted to be a pediatrician. I really didn't consider any other specialty. So when I went into pediatrics and started seeing patients, I was just, I felt a little unprepared for really helping these families do.

Julia Nordgren (2m 36s):

What is the one of the most elemental things of parenting and good health, which is feeding your baby. And of course we have nutrition, we have science, we have all that background in medical school, but the conversations in the pediatrics office, I find the most valuable ones are talking about, Hey, how are things going? How are you feeding your child? And when things go off the rails, kids have trouble. And so did their parents, whether that's pediatric obesity, high cholesterol, pre-diabetes all of these problems. We're getting more and more common, really underlying foundation. And we were all struggling a lot. And I think part of fixing this problem to me, the joy of fixing the problem wasn't well, don't worry.

Julia Nordgren (3m 18s):

We always have medications for that. And I wanted to address this in a more positive and joyful and more elemental manner. And I've always loved food. So I had gone to the healthy kitchens, healthy lives conference and met similarly minded people who love food and who loved medicine. And don't see our role as being prescriptive or, you know, eat this and eat that and just take this medicine. So I decided to take a break and really get the training. So that's when I took time off my medical practice and went to culinary school.

Katie Ferraro (3m 47s):

I think that is so amazing. Like, so first of all, we have a lot of pediatricians and physicians who are in our audience, a lot of whom are interested in baby led weaning because their parents and are, but also they get a lot of questions from their patients and they're like, gosh, you know, the reality is, and I just like to remind parents because they go to the pediatrician, but more than 90% of physicians in the United States have never taken a dedicated nutrition class. And so sometimes when you ask your pediatrician or your doctor questions about food, they're struggling at the same level that you are, especially if their parents, because they're not getting the formal nutrition training. And even if you are formal nutrition training, like if you can't translate it into usable tips about food for parents, it doesn't matter. But I love that you like went to the extent of going

Julia Nordgren (4m 31s):

Yeah, because I wanted to be better equipped. And it's so interesting because it's not only, and I live and work in Palo Alto, California. And so my patient base is a very culturally diverse and what's so fascinating to me as what I use from culinary school, you can imagine I'm a busy mom. I've got teenage boys. I'm not making them hollandaise sauce every day. I'm not doing fish souffle. I'm not utilizing those great techniques that we've learned. Although what I use every day are the language of food. I understand when a family tells me they eat naan and they eat dahl. I know what that means. I've made that before. I know Asian flavor profiles, I understand the basic ingredients and techniques that found our daily food culture.

Julia Nordgren (5m 16s):

And if I don't understand that, I can't begin to have a relevant and meaningful conversation with that family about what their goals are and how they want to feed their children.

Katie Ferraro (5m 27s):

Can you tell me a little bit about the patient population that you see in your medical practice?

Julia Nordgren (5m 30s):

Sure. So I'm a pediatrician, but I have a specialty practice where I see kids who are referred to me by a general pediatrician who have high cholesterol or pre-diabetes, or are struggling with a weight gain. And that could be anything from a weight gain. That's happened for an illness or an injury or a pandemic, or it could be from chronic obesity. So I see children with all kinds of weight issues that could be longstanding, that could be acute. And we really work to look at the growth charts, understanding where those graphs, the height graph, the weight graph might be diverging and help set a path forward to helping those come together a little more that supports their physical and metabolic health a little bit better.

Katie Ferraro (6m 16s):

One of the reasons that's why I love speaking to you is that my entire world is about kids. I have seven kids who are younger than your kids, but I feel like you and I are. I mean, I was probably older when I had my kids than you are. So I feel like you and I are of the same age, except you're like my cool mom friend, because your kids are a little bit older than mine. And I remembered healthy kitchen, healthy lives, like taking tidbits of information away from you being like, oh my gosh, her kids are like at the next stage where my kids are going to be. And you had such practical tips. And I remember like, I'm getting into the age now where my kids are interested in screens. My oldest is six. And I remember you had like such a cool of like bartering system. So talk to our audience. Cause like coming down the pike as a screen set, like if you have babies, you're not worried about it.

Katie Ferraro (6m 58s):

You know, the AAP says, baby, shouldn't watch TV. But like when they become toddlers and kids who do, how do you deal with like having the older kids situation in this era of like everybody wanting screens and we want to reconnect our families with food. What are your tips for success there?

Julia Nordgren (7m 12s):

Yes. Well, so I have a few tips and it really, really depends on the age. And I think that we're all feeling so much social pressure. It's so fascinating it's it comes from the kids, but it comes from friends like the ages for getting early and earlier where kids have devices. And so I think you just have to really set your intention. What do I really want? Are things going off the rails? Is that too much? Or does it feel like a good balance? So I think always realizing that you're in charge and you have permission to check in on that balance. And if that balance isn't going well, you absolutely have permission to course correct. I think for little kids, toddlers, especially who love routine and who love, they love guardrails, setting some clear expectations.

Julia Nordgren (7m 54s):

So for example, we all know that if you start a habit of every time they get in the car, you get a snack or you get a device. If you walk going into the car and they don't have the snack or don't have the device that's upsetting to them. So I think when you're starting out being clear about what those guardrails are, if you want to expect your kid to sit in the car without a snack or without an iPad, just start that way and have a special time or a special place. Okay. It's Saturday at three o'clock it's time for your iPad. Then they understand the time and the place for it. And kids really respond well to that

Katie Ferraro (8m 29s):

Can you talk about the thing where you were trading? I forget what you called the bull you're trading screen time for cooking time. Like they learned how to cut a carrot. I remember like you had videos of that.

Julia Nordgren (8m 37s):

Okay. There's two things. So then when my kids got a little older and they wanted some more uninterrupted video game time, what you'll find with older kids is they're always coming in and out "Hey, get off the game. Hey, I'm not done with the game" and you can you know, it causes a lot of conflict and a lot of difficult conversations that nobody wants. It's just, it's irritating. It's annoying to parents. When you say, get off your iPad and they don't. And also what drove, what I learned early on is if on a weekend, the kids knew that they could get up and be on their iPad. They'd get up at five in the morning, like Christmas morning, and then it comes Monday and you can't get them out of bed for school. So what I did is I let them know the rules that if our children wanted their uninterrupted video game time, we would have to participate in family hour of power.

Julia Nordgren (9m 22s):

So to have two hours of video game time, uninterrupted for them, they spent an hour uninterrupted with the family cleaning, what needs to be done, sweeping the porch, mopping the floor. Oh, that bathroom really needs to be cleaned. Oh, look at all the leaves on the porch. And what I really felt like it taught them was we have a household and part of the weekend is maintaining our household. And I can't do it alone. I'm a working parent, my husband and I can't do all of that effectively. We want them to help. We need them to help. And we want them to learn, to see what needs to be done. So after the hour was done, we would give them their video time uninterrupted. So then they trust that we're not going to say "Hey, get off your game"

Julia Nordgren (10m 2s):

"Hey, get off your game". And we'd set timers. And that was a win-win for everyone. So that was a really nice way to help them understand we're a family. We have the work of the house is the work of the family. And then downtime. They're enjoyable reward time. They choose to be on their iPad. I choose to read a book with a cup of coffee. So in that age group that really worked well. The other thing that we decided to do was of course, they started nagging us for phones. So, oh, my friend's got a phone. This Joe's got a phone. Sam has a phone. We felt like they were too young for phones. And I felt in particular that having a phone of course is a mature responsibility. I also think knowing how to cook is something that they should learn to do.

Julia Nordgren (10m 45s):

And it's, I really felt that for them learning how to cook and being able to make a few simple dishes was really something important that they learn moving into their adulthood. So I made a deal with them that they would be eligible for a phone when they had mastered 10 dishes, four main courses, three vegetable sides, two hot breakfasts, and one perfectly dressed salad, because those were the things that I felt were really elemental to developing their own capability and capacity in the kitchen. So when my son would say, mom I want a phone, I'd say 10 dishes. Let me know when you're ready and I'll teach you how to cook.

Katie Ferraro (11m 21s):

And I love in your presentations you always have like real life snippets from your family of like your kids up there and cooking with you. It's not perfect in stage, which is like so annoying about social media. Like your stuff is real. It's like, here's my kids are giving me some flack, but get up here and cut some carrots with me. And I think you drive home that message of it is so important for children to be engaged in food. Like we can't expect them to know about food. If we don't let them interact with it. For parents who are listening, their kids are a little bit younger babies, toddlers. I know you work with families with children of that age though. Do you have tips families to start incorporating even from early stages? I mean, obviously you can have a six month old wielding a knife, but like how do you get the younger kids involved in food preparation early on?

Julia Nordgren (12m 3s):

Well, I think you touched on exactly the it's not just food preparation and it's not just task oriented now that my kids are older, I can say, Hey, we have a few tasks to do for dinner. Do you want to cut the carrot? Do you want to cut the cucumber? Do you want to scrub the potato? Or do you want them off the floor? But for younger kids understanding food and experiencing food. And when you go to the grocery store and somebody is in the carriage, I would recommend giving them something from the produce aisle to explore. So instead of handing them a device to distract them, hand them a potato, hand them up papaya, hand them an artichoke and artichoke is something so interesting.

Julia Nordgren (12m 43s):

It has so many different colors and textures. What does that smell like? And engaging them experientially even when they're not eating, I think is a really important way to help kids understand food. I think it's so great to take kids to the farmer's market. Hey, meet Mario. He grows strawberries. Mario, do you have a sample today? What does that smell like? What does that taste like? Having these conversations, understanding that people grow the food that nourishes us, introducing them to the people, especially when they can see them week after week. What does Mario have today? Let's go to the market. What do you think Mario is growing this season?

Julia Nordgren (13m 25s):

Now it's winter. What grows in the winter? Those conversations and those tactile experiences, I think are so important to include young children in, as they're learning about food.

Katie Ferraro (13m 37s):

And a lot of our audience is interested in baby led weaning, and they come to it as oftentimes a second time parent, because perhaps they have a picky toddler, which through no fault of their own, you guys will experience some degree of picky eating and they wonder, okay, with my second, I really want to do more of a baby led approach. Any tips on how to get my toddler involved? And I say, yeah, get the toddler involved. Like really take advantage of that competitive nature of toddlers, which is the baby is trying a new food. Tell him what color it is. What does it smell like? What does it taste like? Do you want to be brave and try the artichoke? You can, even with the older child who might not, or be a little reticent to new foods, you can engage them from food.

Katie Ferraro (14m 17s):

Even if you haven't done it from the beginning. And that's what I love about your message. It's like, it's never too late to reverse course. And I was curious if you could speak about that next for the parents who are listening, who feel like they themselves, maybe don't have the best relationship with food and they don't want to replicate that in their children. Could you talk a little bit about this idea of writing your family's food story?

Julia Nordgren (14m 39s):

Oh yeah, of course. Well, it's so interesting that we all have our own food story. And most of that begins with when I was growing up, my family did this, my family, me, this, this was our circumstance. My food story is that my parents divorced when I was young. So we had two single parent households and cooking. Wasn't a priority. My mother was a busy working single mom. We ate a lot out of boxes. My dad actually had taken a cooking class so we ate, we ate differently at his house. We weren't there all the time, so he took a little more time to make meals on the weekends that he had us. So I remember the smells at his house and the flavors and at my mom's house, things were a little more utilitarian.

Julia Nordgren (15m 24s):

Our food story comes from where we grew up. Our food story comes from what our parents loved. What did they enjoy serving to us? And if your story it's easy to see where the flaws were or what you'd like to be different. And it's such a beautiful opportunity to do things a little different for your children. Maybe you were forced to eat foods that you didn't like, maybe your parents didn't allow you to have certain things that you really loved really think about what that meaning is to you. And it's a great opportunity to think, how do I want my children to feel around food at my table? And I think that's just a great place to start because as parents and what I love about having so many great friends who are parents and working moms, we all want the same thing.

Julia Nordgren (16m 7s):

We want to enjoy meal time with our kids. We want them to come to our tables. We want to develop trust. And I think that relates a little bit to the picky eater. And I see a lot of kids in clinic and the parents are frustrated and they come in and they'll only eat this. And they don't like this. And, and the child feels guilty, they feel blamed and the parent feels frustrated. And what I try to do in those situations is reframe that pickiness a little bit. Well, first of all, in an area of it just hasn't happened yet. This child, isn't a kid who loves 48 different kinds of vegetables. So they're not the ones bragging about their, you know, kale chips that they have every day. And these kids aren't, you know, loving 17 different kinds of salad.

Julia Nordgren (16m 50s):

That's okay. And most likely that will change as they grow. Some kids remain very narrow in their choices, but as long as they have a few fruits, a few vegetables that they will reliably eat every day, it's probably okay. It's probably fine that they don't have a huge repertoire of fruits and vegetables that they love to eat. And that could be very different from their sibling who loves to explore this and that and try this with that and have a lot of different kinds of different experiences with food. Sometimes I think that this is a little bit like music. Some people are always waiting for their new playlist to drop some people.

Julia Nordgren (17m 30s):

Can't wait for the new artist to drop an album, to get it on their running mix. And some people have run to the same Madonna running mix for 20 years

Katie Ferraro (17m 40s):

And they're still alive to tell about It

Julia Nordgren (17m 42s):

And they're fine. And that pleases them and it doesn't bother them and they don't need the same variety and that same experience with diversity as other kids need and seek out. Some kids are extremely adventurous and their wardrobe choices. They wouldn't dream of wearing the tights. They were yesterday or the same two to they hot on the day before. It's always new. It's always different. And some kids don't need that variety. And we'll wear the same blue shorts day after day with the same blue t-shirt. And that's fine for them. I'm sure Katie, you noticed this in your children. Some kids are really seeking out adventure, artistically, whether it's the colors that they choose to wear or the foods they tend to eat and they're just different.

Julia Nordgren (18m 28s):

And that's fine

Katie Ferraro (18m 30s):

Just to play the devil's advocate here though. Cause you mentioned the, some kids aren't just going to be into 17 types of salad. And I totally agree with you. However, just like you really cannot send your kid to school in the same dirty blue shorts every day. Like there is some onus on us as parents to introduce some, especially with regards to diet some of the diet diversity, because the research does show us that the more exposures babies have. So I do like the message that don't feel stressed if your baby's not eating a hundred different foods, but also they don't wake up on their fifth birthday, magically liking 17 types of salad. If they've never seen a vegetable.

Julia Nordgren (19m 5s):

Exactly, exactly. And you make such a great point. That exposure is important. And I think that's exactly where your audiences for baby led weaning. The more exposures you give now, the diversity, the variety, the joy, the interest, and the lack of pressure. And just like, it's an exploration, it's a curiosity together. Hey, how does this taste, how does this taste dipped in this? How does this go with this? We're not interested in that. Okay, fine. Couple of days later, it comes back and all of that work and all of those tries and I hate to call them fails, but all those tries and lack of acceptance that retry, all of that is so important for laying a foundation for later in life, picking those things back up re engaging with those experiences that they've had positively as an infant and as a toddler.

Julia Nordgren (19m 56s):

Absolutely.

Katie Ferraro (19m 56s):

I think a lot of our parents feel stressed sometimes. Like I, myself, don't like 17 different types of mushrooms. And so I always remind parents that you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Like there are very good resources out there for you. And one of the reasons why I love chatting with you, cause I just think your message is so down to earth and something that people can really do. But I also want to let our audience know that you have a fabulous resource yourself. You guys, Julia wrote a book called the new family table and the subtitle is cooking more eating together and staying parentheses relatively sane. And I love this book because it's not like, oh, all of a sudden your baby's going to just start eating unsalted kale chips. And you're going to be this amazing mom.

Katie Ferraro (20m 37s):

It's this progression of like, listen, if you want some ideas of different ways, you can incorporate vegetables or whole grains or high iron foods. Like these are real life recipes with, I love just the global pallet in your cookbook, but it's not over the top things that families are never going to do. And could you just tell us a little bit about how you came to select some of those items that were in there? Cause I'm sure some of it's based on the experiences you're seeing in your clinic and with your own family.

Julia Nordgren (21m 1s):

Of course, of course. Well, you know, it's funny I wrote the book just because, you know, I was an English major and I love stories and I love writing and I really love cookbooks and I know that we can get so many ideas on the internet and there's so much that's available, but I think having a bookshelf, it's just like engaging your children, both reading, having things on your shelf and having the beautiful pictures and having resources there. I still go to my cookbooks all the time

Katie Ferraro (21m 25s):

And for kids to go in that cookbook and you pick out three things you want to make.

Julia Nordgren (21m 29s):

Yes. And I'll have this great experience. I had the opportunity at healthy kitchens to meet Molly Katzin, who is a very famous cookbook author and focuses so much on beautiful vegetarian food. And I was just chit chatting with her and we had the opportunity to have a, you know, just a sweet conversation together. She asked me about my family and she asked me about my kids and I told her their ages and she said, oh, that's great. What'd you write down your address? A week later she had sent them each a cookbook scribes to each one that was age appropriate. Dear Andrew. I really hope you enjoy this book, dear Benjamin. Good luck on your cooking journey. And I can tell you those kids treasured those books.

Julia Nordgren (22m 9s):

And they went to them and looked at the pictures and could follow the instructions and having that as something that they could hold and have as their own and have as their own part of their story as they had their own personal guide and Molly Katzin. And they would say, I want to make this recipe. All I had to do was get the ingredients

Katie Ferraro (22m 27s):

Yeah, sometimes I wish my kids would just pick out the recipes. I hate picking them out. I love cooking but I wish someone else to just pick it out for me, exactly like

Julia Nordgren (22m 36s):

Well and this is what I like to do in terms of, you know, not to make kids feel badly or unsuccessful or that the variety is a key to their success, but I let, I let kids be in charge. And, and this is a little for older kids, but when, when the parents are struggling, I try to really just encourage them to relax about it and to take stock about what their children will eat. And as you said, they really do need some diversity for their nutritional life. A kid who eats only beige foods, only carbohydrates foods, only high carbohydrate foods, highly refined carbohydrate foods. Those kids do tend to have more health issues. And so we really work to develop a core of their diet.

Julia Nordgren (23m 18s):

That's strong and as diverse and as enjoyable is that can be, and I let the kids tell me, well, tell me what, what do you like, tell me about the vegetables that you do enjoy. Well, I like carrots, cucumber, payors, blackberries. So maybe it comes to five things. Those typically are enough. And so what I encourage families to do is make a list of those things and let kids decide what are there particular nights you'd like to have these things. Do you want me to choose and making sure that the quantity of fruits and vegetables even if the variety is minimal, but the quantity gets there. And I think that's really a key message. And then as those kids get accustomed, okay, it really is important that I eat a good quantity of fruits and vegetables, maybe on their own, they'll say, all right, can I try something different?

Julia Nordgren (24m 3s):

Maybe I can add broccoli with the same flavor profile. Maybe I could add green beans and allowing kids to ask to encourage that variety tends to be a very successful technique.

Katie Ferraro (24m 15s):

I love that idea of just even having a list

Julia Nordgren (24m 18s):

Just write it down

Katie Ferraro (24m 19s):

We have a hundred first foods list for parents. Like, listen, if you're getting stuck in the potato, pasta and rice rut, and there's nothing wrong with those foods, but they really are only the tip of the iceberg of the starchy foods that are out there in my hundred first foods list, there's twenty different types of whole grains. And I'll show you how you can make them safe to feed to your baby. Again, you don't have to go out there and reinvent the wheel. We can just kind of point people in the right direction. And something as simple as a list can really help

Julia Nordgren (24m 42s):

Yeah. And sometimes just letting kids. And sometimes parents come to me at a time where they're frustrated and I totally understand that. And I am. I've been there myself. I have, I have a child who just loves sugar and if I don't work to it every day, he will just choose the high carbohydrate foods. He will choose he won't on his own choose a diet that's rich and varied and fruits and vegetables.

Katie Ferraro (25m 6s):

Do you have any words of wisdom for I'm thinking of the mom who's out there? Who's like, yeah, my family food story was written for me. And I think about all the things I don't like about it and moms who are postpartum and they don't like their body and they don't feel like cooking. And then all of a sudden, there's this blank slate in front of you, your six month old child, who's just starting solid foods, any words of wisdom or advice for them? And I say moms, it's mostly moms, but dads and caregivers, as well as you're stepping forward into writing your family's food story, like how can they maybe turn some of those experiences around to do it differently for their family?

Julia Nordgren (25m 43s):

Yeah. I think it's a really, it's such a great question and such a great thing to think about. And of course I know for moms, it's not, you almost don't have time to be philosophical and think through everything with great intention, but just think for a minute, gosh, you know, what would I, what do I have the opportunity to do different? And I think acknowledging your food story, and there are good parts about it and there aren't good parts about it. That's okay. And understanding your parents were living in a different time and they had their own constraints. They had their own food story that they were working with. They had their own things that were joyful and they had their own information that they were working with. And that's just a different time as well.

Julia Nordgren (26m 24s):

Now our culture is so inundated with carbohydrate foods that are refined and profitable high sugary foods. We might have to be different. We do have to be different and more intentional, I believe to keep our kids healthy and to eat well. I believe that our current cultural norms are not to eat well. If we follow what's currently normal and acceptable and follow kids menus and preschool snacks.

Katie Ferraro (26m 48s):

Okay. So Dr. Julia cooks. Yeah, I know it's the name of your website, but tell us just a little bit more, where can we go to learn more about you and your work, your cookbook?

Julia Nordgren (26m 56s):

Yeah. So there's a few ways so that you can get my cookbook is on my website, Dr. Julia cooks, and also at some local bookstores up here and the Palo Alto area books, Inc. My book is also available on Amazon, also available on Amazon is my new audible book that was released. So it's something great to listen to just like a podcast. And it's on super foods. And you know, me by now, I don't believe that one food or two foods are the panacea or a poor diet, but these to me are foundational foods, foods to build a healthy life on. And there's so many of those same foods that you encourage in your a hundred first foods

Katie Ferraro (27m 32s):

Thank you so much for coming on. I know you're incredibly busy and you always make time to share these really practical tips. I love the work that you do and thank you for making food accessible and easy for families to actually enjoy.

Julia Nordgren (27m 46s):

Yes. And I really enjoy talking to you as well. I love what you're doing and your audience there, you know, so many we're all wanting to do, right. And we're all struggling. We all need to help and support each other. It doesn't have to be perfect, but the more you cook and the more you enjoy food with your kids, I think just by having that faith and having that joy around food, they will become wonderful eaters. The kind that come back to your table on Thanksgiving when they go to college

Katie Ferraro (28m 9s):

Hopefully cooking some of the food. Well, thank you again. This was wonderful.

Julia Nordgren (28m 13s):

Oh, it's so great to talk to you and call anytime.

Katie Ferraro (28m 16s):

Well, I hope you guys enjoyed that interview with Dr. Julia cooks. She is for real, one of my favorite people in the feeding world. And I think it's because she is so real. She's an amazing clinician. She's like a cool mom. Like we always say, I wish she lived next door. I would totally hang out with her in real life. And I don't get to see her nearly enough, but I'm so grateful that she could come on and talk to us about making food more of an enjoyable part of our lives. Even from our baby's first bites. I'll link up Dr. Julia's platforms in her book and everywhere she's at on the web, on the show notes for this episode at blwpodcast.com forward slash 88. Bye now.