Jessica Setnick (1s):

You're every bad experience with food. It takes many good experiences to outweigh it. So we may not be able to make a child being better, but we can definitely make it worse.

Katie Ferraro (10s):

Hey, there I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby led weaning here on the Baby Led Weaning Made Easy podcast. I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leading you with the competence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby led weaning. Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the baby led weaning made easy podcast. I am so excited to be interviewing one of my real life friends today, Jessica Setnick, she also happens to be an eating disorder dietitian.

Katie Ferraro (50s):

She's one of the most well-known eating disorder, dietitians in the United States, and she speaks about topics ranging from pediatric feeding disorders to eating disorders, working with adults, children, babies. She runs the gamut. But what I love about Jessica is her language. She has such a fabulous way of crafting the English language in such a way that you're like, oh, I never realized that you could say something that constructive and that helpful in such a nice tone and with such confidence in which such encouragement. And so I invited her on the podcast to help us learn some of the language and the techniques that we can use to help create a pressure free feeding environment, because we know that babies can sense pressure.

Katie Ferraro (1m 30s):

And when we're pressured or we're stressed that we convey that to our babies. And so, as someone who works with people who have feeding and eating disorders, I think it's important to hear from her. Well, what are the things we can do to hopefully prevent that as our babies are starting out with solid foods? So I hope you guys enjoy this episode with Jessica Setnick eating disorder dietitian. Who's here to talk to us all about how to create a pressure free feeding environment when we're starting our babies on solid foods. Well, hello, Jessica, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. I'm so excited to get to speak with you. I'm here. All right. I've known you in a personal and professional manner for probably about 15 years. And I know you as an eating disorder, dietitian, you teach eating disorder boot camp, but I always think of you in the eating disorder space, but I know that you got your start working with children and pediatrics and feeding disorders.

Katie Ferraro (2m 19s):

So I was wondering if you could just maybe tell us a little bit about your professional history and how you got to where you are today. Absolutely.

Jessica Setnick (2m 25s):

So my first job out of school was at children's hospital here in Dallas. They were just starting an eating disorder program and I was the first dietitian to be hired specifically for that program. And as it grew in developed, we all learn a lot about the different things that can go wrong with eating and eventually opened up a feeding disorders program for kids under six years old. So pretty much in every way I would say the beginning of my career was about everything that can go wrong with kids eating because the other part of my job at the children's hospital was working in the endocrine clinic that was really quite an education. And I've been able to carry that into my private practice and then into now my speaking career, because there just aren't a lot of pediatric specialists, dietitians who specialize in eating disorders.

Jessica Setnick (3m 13s):

It's like two specialties layered on top of each other. So we do have about 800 of us around the country, but it's still a pretty small percentage of all the dietitians out there. And it's really what I like.

Katie Ferraro (3m 25s):

And I think that's a fabulous combination of skills, Jessica, because I know so many parents, especially new parents are worried about all the things that can go wrong. It's helpful to hear about them to some extent, but I know that you'll be able to leave us with some tangible ideas on things we can do to prevent some of these issues and help create a pressure free feeding environment.

Jessica Setnick (3m 44s):

Absolutely. Yeah. And I felt like knowing the things that can go wrong doesn't mean you can prevent all of them, but it certainly helps to identify where things can go wrong and what the critical points are and what we can do instead.

Katie Ferraro (3m 56s):

No know you have a background in eating disorders and feeding disorders, and I were looking at a lot of your work kind of getting ready for this episode. And one thing that jumped out at me was your use of the term universal precautions. And it was curious if you could explain your universal precautions approach and are there any takeaway ideas from this concept for parents who are just starting out on solid foods with their babies?

Jessica Setnick (4m 19s):

Absolutely because the basic foundation of the universal precautions is that we don't know who has the potential for an eating disturbance. So we treat all kids as if they have potential for problems because they do, they could develop a problem. And so the universal precaution says, let's do everything we can to prevent a problem in advance. Now the universal professions were originally designed for dietitians, but the two key steps that parents can implement right from day zero are taking morality out of bed and separating eating from feeling.

Katie Ferraro (4m 48s):

So how do we take morality out of foods?

Jessica Setnick (4m 52s):

Yeah. So the idea behind that is to look at food as fuel, look at food as molecules. However, you have to do it so that you are not calling foods or labeling food, good and bad for you. And it's really hard to do because the truth is our bodies know what to do with food. I mean, if you want to think about it as a miracle, I do. Or if you want to think about it as just amazing the fact that you can put carrots and corn flakes in your mouth and somehow your body knows how to make hair and energy and nostrils or whatever out of it. It's really amazing. And even when I talk to kids about nutrition, we really talk about it on that level. It's that basic. And you don't have to get involved into, you know, what are the ingredients of food?

Jessica Setnick (5m 36s):

It just, the idea that food can turn into your body is really amazing or energy. And our body knows how to do that. The same way our body knows how to turn oxygen into whatever oxygen we can. And I showing my ignorance of that aspect. I know a lot about nutrition, but that's all so like they're like taking morality out of food, just means saying that food is fuel your body and it doesn't make you a good or bad person, whether you eat or don't eat or how much you eat or which foods you prefer. Everyone's entitled to those preferences.

Katie Ferraro (6m 6s):

I love that. It's funny because we're both dieticians. We have a lot of dieticians in the audience, dieticians who are also new moms. And then sometimes we sometimes focus, especially the dietitians too much on the nutrition parents, especially moms and the dietitian moms are so worried about how many milligrams of iron the baby's getting and how many micrograms of this and the babies. If you think about it, babies are just learning how to eat during the weaning period. It's completely asinine to expect that they would be able to meet all of their nutrition needs. You know, you don't flip a switch at six months of age. So we try to, especially the ones who are prone to counting the calories and the grams and the micrograms back off of that and give your baby the opportunity to learn how to eat.

Jessica Setnick (6m 46s):

Yes, Well, and the beauty of nutrition is that it's not a matter of if your baby doesn't eat, let's say a green vegetable all day today, then tomorrow they're going to be deficient in something, right? Our body has nutrient stores and we try to encourage new parents to think of nutrition as a two week cycle. So if your baby eats a green vegetable, sometime in a two week period, they're getting the nutrients in that green vegetable. It's not a matter of trying to get one in it, every meal or every day, even because the body knows how to store nutrients for tomorrow.

Katie Ferraro (7m 16s):

And you'll often hear parents say, well, I wanted to finish this meal with something. I know he likes like a glove of peanut butter. If it's an older baby or a pouch, because I just wanted to make sure he got enough. We always try to remind parents that breast milk and or formula is still providing the majority of your baby's nutrition needs. During the weaning process, don't focus on how much your baby's eating, give them the opportunity to learn how to eat. So in the vein of that, how to eat messaging Jessica for parents and caregivers who are just starting out on solid foods, can you give us some tangible ways that we can set the stage towards creating this enigmatic, peaceful eating environment that you always hear about?

Jessica Setnick (7m 53s):

Sure and I'm not going to pretend it's easy, Katie, but it's the single most important thing that a new parent can do. There, it goes, manage your own distress and concern. I know that's huge, right? But it is literally...

Katie Ferraro (8m 9s):

I know you've been to my house during meal time and It's absolute chaos. And it's like probably the least peaceful place on the planet. But you're like, this is such wonderful chaos listened to all the noise. I'm like, oh my God, this is not peaceful.

Jessica Setnick (8m 17s):

Yeah, exactly. It is. And so peaceful is maybe not quite the right word, but Ellyn Satter uses the word calm. And unflustered think about us as adults. When is the last time you ate in a calm and unflustered environment? Anytime I was away from my kids eating in the car or, you know, whatever the case may be. So whether it is, you know, talking with a pediatric dietitian to comfort, you go for it. If it's a Facebook group with other new parents, go for it or seeing it counselor, I'm not saying you should be worried the rest of the time. What I'm saying is that managing your own anxiety and stress about your kids, eating is actually good for your kids eating.

Katie Ferraro (8m 56s):

And we teach parents that, that, you know, babies really can recognize and they respond to stress. Especially in the beginning when parents babies are gagging and parents, we teach them how to get over their fear of gagging. That's a natural and necessary part of learning how to eat. And if you freak out and you lunge at the baby and the baby hunches back and sucks air in and then causes all harmless gag to become a harmful choke, your reaction has actually made a natural situation harmful. So we do have to work on our own behaviors. I love talking to you because I feel like you speak a different language than me. You always have something that I would say you would say in such a more eloquent fashion instead of peaceful eating, you said unflustered in, what was the other way?

Jessica Setnick (9m 34s):

Actually, Ellyn Satter's words, calm, and unflustered calm. And unflustered.

Katie Ferraro (9m 38s):

Talk to us more about language because for specific language that parents can use, like, for me, I'm big on, I mean, I don't want to be, I'm a big yeller and I'm big on "no", like without even thinking "no" is out of my mouth. And I always like, oh my gosh, I need to reframe that and speak positively. But it just doesn't come naturally to me and for other parents who might raise their hand and be like, yeah, me too. How can we use language? That's encouraging, but without being overbearing or interfering, when the babies are learning how to eat.

Jessica Setnick (10m 6s):

So to me, it's the exact same language that you use when a baby's learning how to do anything else. But for some reason, we seem to get much more stressed out about eating. Like when a child is learning, how to crawl or something like that, you don't reach out every second and like wipe the drool off their face. But when a kid is eating, we reach out with a towel and wipe the food off their face every second. And so it's really about just thinking about the way you give your child within a safe space. You know that they're safe. You give them a little bit of room to experiment and experience. So what would you say when a baby's learning to crawl? Good for you get trying. You're so precious. Your mama's little sweetie, right? Any of those things are appropriate to say they're cheerful.

Jessica Setnick (10m 48s):

And honestly, we all know your child does not know what the words mean. You say yummy, yummy. And you're telling me and the child, just these smiling and happy tone, but that's the step that encourages the kid to keep going. And someday your child will understand the words you say. And so it's a good habit to get in now being positive, because there's so much time that you have to say things like, aren't you going to eat more than one macaroni noodle? Or are you sure you're going to eat more macaroni? Like it's so easy to judge what someone else is eating, but we don't do that with crawling. We don't say, are you sure you're finished trying to roll over for the day? I think you should try rolling over one or time.

Jessica Setnick (11m 29s):

Right? We just, we let the kids find their way. And that's really the same stuff we should be doing when they're learning to eat.

Katie Ferraro (11m 35s):

One of my colleagues uses the same analogy is the voice you use when you're baby meets a dog. Like for example, if you're scared about gagging, instead of freaking out, you need to remain calm. So you said you don't need to be fake, but sometimes you do need to fake it. And she says, use the same voice that you use when you're baby meets a dog. It's okay, baby. It's just a dog. The dog's not going to hurt you. And when the baby's gagging, you can say, it's okay, baby. It's just a gag work through it, but we don't touch the baby. We don't lean into the baby. We don't interfere because the baby can work that out on their own. And so I think it goes back to your original recommendation, which is parents need to manage their own distress. And again, a lot of our parents that are coming into this situation, you know, this working with eating disorders, that a lot of parents don't have an entirely helpful relationship with food and they don't want to see those feelings and behaviors reflected in their children.

Katie Ferraro (12m 21s):

So one of my other colleagues describes it kind of, as you're writing your family's food story, like your baby is basically a blank slate. And you know, you don't need to project your issues and relationship with food onto your baby. Your baby will learn how to have a healthful relationship with food. If you do create this pressure-free feeding environment, would you agree?

Jessica Setnick (12m 40s):

I think that we can't always make a baby eating better, but we can definitely make it worse. And that's where I think we have the most impact is if you have inherited a mixed up relationship with food, then it's really important to meet with an eating disorder. Dietitian, even if you don't consider yourself to have an eating disorder, but simply because our default pattern is the either recreate the trauma that we had in childhood with food, or to go 180 degrees different, which is not always good either. And I can use an example from when I was raising my step-kids and they were both extremely selective eaters. I met them when they were five and six. And the lie that we stepmothers can tell ourselves, maybe stepdads too, is that if I was in the picture from the very beginning, these kids, what do you, everything, which is not true.

Jessica Setnick (13m 28s):

But again, it was a story I could tell myself, and this is not exactly about eating, but when I was a kid, I felt like I did not get to do anything on my own. I felt really micromanaged. So for example, if I were making something in a recipe, my mom would come along and re cut it or re season it. She still does to this day. I've just learned to handle it differently. And so when Peyton, my little one was about six years old and we were baking something and she said, well, how much of this should I make? Or how should I cut this or something like that. I said, however, you do it. We'll be fine. Thinking that that's what I wish someone would have told me was she said, I'm six. I've never made this before. I need some advice made me realize that just doing things differently from the way they were done for us is not the answer either.

Jessica Setnick (14m 12s):

We really have to be careful that we aren't trying so hard not to be like our parents, that we end up being a different kind of crazy. And forgive me if I just called your parents crazy. But we have to remember that almost everyone alive right now is either the child or grandchild of someone who went through a traumatic food situation, if not you yourself. So there were refugee situations. There was the great depression. There was World War II. There was Vietnam. I mean, there's all these different situations where people did not have enough to eat or didn't have eating on a regular time schedule. And those things influence us to this day. Another example is a patient I had, who was very specific that he would only eat at nine o'clock noon and six o'clock.

Jessica Setnick (14m 58s):

Those were meal times. And he had a serious eating disorder because he didn't actually only eat at those times. He also had a binging problem and he was binge eating at other times. But when we talked about it, he said, no, everything else is wrong except for nine noon and six. And I didn't really understand it. And he didn't really have words to explain how that happen. And when I was speaking with his wife at one of our sessions, she said, oh, I know why he does that. It's because his father was disabled. And there were a bunch of kids in the house. And the way the mother stayed organized and was able to keep everything shifts shape. Was it, she said, the meals are at nine noon and six. And if you're not there, you don't eat the end. And so that's how he was raised.

Jessica Setnick (15m 38s):

And it wasn't a bad way to be raised. It's just that he was so inflexible because it felt like somehow betraying the way he was raised. And so that's what we're trying to avoid is we're trying to avoid passing on those same things that may have had a purpose at one time, but are no longer needed. And so that's where you get into trouble, where a child who for example, has been having trouble growing and the pediatrician saying, you need to encourage them to eat more. Then at some point we say, oh, well, they're growing too fast. And now they should eat less. If we just kind of left them alone to their own devices. A lot of times those kids turn out fine without the pressure that we put on them.

Katie Ferraro (16m 15s):

And you mentioned the Ellyn Satter earlier. And I think one thing that's so helpful to parents is if we can just keep in mind, like, I love to just, I tell my own kids "mind your own business", but if we could all as adults, remember what our jobs are, essentially mind our own business and feeding, which is it's our job to pick what the child eats and where they eat and when they eat. But that ultimately it's up to the child to determine how much or even whether they eat. And so sometimes when parents get so stressed about how much they're eating and just say, Hey, you got to mind your own business. That's not your job. I say it more nicely than that. But you mentioned like the meal times, you know, the other end of the spectrum. Cause I feel like now I'm setting up traumatic feeding experiences for my kids by making us eat at exactly the same time every day. But if there are no mealtimes and children are allowed to graze throughout the day, that's the other end of the spectrum, which is not ideal either because then the baby or child never feels hunger.

Jessica Setnick (17m 2s):

Right. Exactly. Exactly. You don't just do 180 from whatever was a problem for you. Exactly. And another thing I feel like it's really important to have compassion for yourself as a parent too, because if you think your main job is to feed shelter and close your child, and a third of that seems to be going wrong. There's a lot of ego that gets involved in a kid's eating right. And a lot of comparing this kids eating more variety than that kid, or even siblings, even twins, oh my gosh, you are the person who would know this, the best of any of us that even twins or in your case, quads are not all going to develop at the same pace or eat the same foods, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it's really important to keep our egos parents out of it and not feel like the way the kids eat reflects on us.

Jessica Setnick (17m 49s):

And I'll tell you, sweet Peyton and Derek is as selective eaters as they were when I realized that they may be going off to college, only eating these five certain foods. And I thought, well, okay, then they're just going to learn how to be confident ordering and restaurant. They're going to learn how to eat at the table with nice manners. They're going to learn how to have conversations with adults. I'm going to help them with the things that I can help because these kids on top of being selective eaters are not also going to be ashamed of being selective eaters. And the PS of the story is that around maybe 10 years old, Derek started suddenly asking for foods that he had not eaten before foods that Greg and I ate that were at the table, but he had not eaten before.

Jessica Setnick (18m 29s):

And it was really a huge change over the course of a few weeks. And so at a non meal time, I asked him and I said, Derek, it's really fine that you're eating these other foods. But I just, I I'm so curious. I have to know why now what's changed. And he said, I mean, he looked at me so seriously and he was, I think, 10 years old. And he said, Jessica, I'm going to be dating soon. And I have not going to order off the kids' menu. And I remember having this huge sigh of relief internally silent side, oh my gosh, all this Ellyn Satter stuff that I've been teaching people my whole career. It actually works because here he is not having felt pressure to eat things. And yet he's choosing on his own schedule. It wasn't our schedule with his schedule.

Jessica Setnick (19m 9s):

And now that child needs everything and you know, wherever the older child goes. And in our case, the younger child wasn't far behind, but it's really hard to keep your ego out of it. And think I made this food for you. Why aren't you eating it? Or I paid for this food. My God, if you haven't heard that at, you did not grow up in America.

Katie Ferraro (19m 26s):

For babies. It's like, you need this food. You have to eat this so you can grow and failing to recognize that it's a continuum.

Jessica Setnick (19m 33s):

It's so easy to focus on. Like if my kid would just eat that one bite of broccoli, then everything would be okay. And it's really easy to sort of hone in on that. But that's where we have to manage our own anxiety, manage our own ego, keep the good and bad out of food, but also keep the getting bad out of ourselves. I'm a bad parent. If my kid only eats off the kid's menu or something like that, you're not a bad parent. There's lots of factors that go into what your kid eats. And if your child, like in my case, I felt like if my child knows how to sit at a table and eat with a knife and fork and have nice manners and say, no, thank you to something they don't want. Then I am a successful parent or step-parent as opposed to what actual foods that they eat.

Jessica Setnick (20m 13s):

But it's hard. It's hard when you have sort of shaming, blaming ego, tripping people in your circle, whose kid, you know, eat whatever. And you know, sushi with chopsticks when they're six months old and you know, you feel like you're a terrible parent, but you just have to remember. That has nothing to do with it.

Katie Ferraro (20m 31s):

And our parents see so much of that. And one of the things that I've really tried to do in creating what's now the largest digital community that's dedicated to baby led weaning, is that really trying to flip that conversation and focus on the positive things associated with starting food, because there is so much judgment. There's so much comparison and it's just, it's so unnecessary. We don't need that as parents. We don't need that as educators, we're trying to help our kids learn how to eat. So having said that, knowing that you work with families who have eating disorders and feeding disorders, I was wondering if you could share some of the things that you see in those clients, obviously without, you know, violating their privacy, but what's the bad stuff that could happen. You're like, Hmm. If they had just done this or that, I know it's not that black and white, but just some walk away tips for our audience.

Katie Ferraro (21m 13s):

Like what should we avoid in feeding?

Jessica Setnick (21m 16s):

So there is two things that really come to mind. One is you want to avoid making your child feel bad. Like they've disappointed you for, you know, not eating food. Like, well, I thought you would really like this, but I guess you don't like broccoli anymore or whatever. You know, that kind of like guilt tripping. That's not ideal at all because it mixes up food with feelings. And that's the second thing that we can do that we should really avoid is mixing up food and feelings in terms of, if you are sad here, this lollipop will make you feel better. Or if your kid gets good grades, oh yeah, let's go celebrate by having ice cream. In other words, food is fuel and it's appropriate to have food.

Jessica Setnick (21m 57s):

You enjoy. Sometimes it's BiPAP. Sometimes it's vice fan. Sometimes it's kale, sometimes it's sardines, but it's not because you were a good kid or you're not withholding food because then I was a disappointment or didn't get good grades or things like that. It just develops that really unhealthy relationship with food. And one of my catchphrases for the past 22 years has been your child's relationship with food is more important than any one food that they do or don't eat. And that's really the main thing I would encourage everyone listening to keep in mind is that you're really building day by day meal by meal, a healthy relationship with it because it's probably hard to imagine when you're talking about a three month old or a newborn, but you only have a certain number of years under which you are the person controlling your child's intake.

Jessica Setnick (22m 46s):

Because as soon as they start going to school, they're exposed to other foods. As soon as they grow up and have home or go to college, they're going to be buying their own groceries, right? So there's a limited amount of time that you have to control what they're eating. So you're really not trying to control what they're eating for a lifetime. You're trying to set the stage for a healthy relationship with food for a lifetime. And that something, if you think about we're really setting the stage for a lifetime, it can be overwhelming. I'm sure, but also think about it as, okay. We have a whole lifetime to deal with here. We're not trying to get this one food in by tomorrow. You just have to take that time, pressure off and remember that for every bad experience kids have with a food, it takes many, many good experiences that outweigh it.

Jessica Setnick (23m 30s):

So the best thing we can do is avoid those bad experiences in the first place. So they don't have to overthink it,

Katie Ferraro (23m 37s):

But also continue to offer those foods. Because as we know, research shows us, you may need to show a food to a baby 10 or 15 times before they like or accept it.

Jessica Setnick (23m 45s):

But offering isn't a bad experience. Forcing a kid to eat is a bad experience.

Katie Ferraro (23m 48s):

I think some parents confuse the two where I offered it. They didn't eat it. So now I feel like I'm forcing, well, no, we need to mix up how we're offering it. The way that it's prepared, what foods it's offered with the time of day. It's not that you're forcing. You're just reintroducing it, but you can't offer your baby broccoli once and say, well, they don't like it. I guess we're just going to have big Macs for the rest of our lives.

Jessica Setnick (24m 7s):

No, no, no. To me, well, first of all, they have to see it and experience it and be in the kitchen while you're cooking it. And all of those things that build up to actually putting it in their mouth. And some kids are just naturally more excited about new things. And some kids are less excited about new things. I mean, the truth is everything is new for babies, right? I mean, air is new for babies. Like being wrapped in a blanket is new for babies. So, you know, we think, oh, well they don't try something new. Then they're going to eat the same things for the rest of their life. Well, no, let's go a little nicer to babies and give them some credit, but they just need to try things a little more at their own pace, but absolutely trying something or putting something on the plate or putting it even on a spoon and offering it to the child's mouth.

Jessica Setnick (24m 51s):

That's not forcing. Forcing is when you actually put something in a child's mouth, they give you that puff, you know where it's like, no we're done here. Like there's no more of this going in my mouth. And you keep sticking that spoon in that baby's mouth. That's why I think baby led weaning is so cool because there is no forcing, right? I mean, you're allowing the child to make the decision. It's such a cool idea. And it really supports what we're already saying. And what Satter does too, is that at some point you can get a child to surrender and to stop fighting you. And they will just eat whatever you give them. But that's not a healthy relationship with food because right now, maybe it's you telling them they have to eat one more bite or 10 more bites or whatever, but someday it's going to be a diet or a drug dealer.

Jessica Setnick (25m 35s):

I mean, I hate to say it, but they say that the same kid that says like, no, I'm done. I'm not going to eat anymore. It's the same kid that does know everyone not do drugs, or I will not have sex with you. And those are good things. So we should not be trying to, you know, force kids to violate their own boundaries. When really we're trying to encourage kids to listen to their own cues because that's the only thing that's going to be consistent throughout their life. You won't always be

Katie Ferraro (25m 59s):

One of my favorite presentations that you give is called is this normal childhood feeding problems. So could you just give us in summary here at the end of the interview, like a rundown, what are some of the problems that we could be on the lookout? And then any preventative advice you have for parents that is like just starting out in solid foods. Like I don't want to make this mistake just high-level suggestions for us

Jessica Setnick (26m 20s):

Sure. So number one is just development should guide feeding. Don't compare too much to other kids or siblings. Don't pressure kids beyond their abilities development should guide feeding. When a child can hold a spoon, they can have a spoon. When the child can hold a carrot, they can have a carrot when a child can hold their head up without flopping over. That's when they can sit in a high chair, right? Those are the things that we're looking for is development and using our own sort of calendar of events or whatever book says at which stage, you know, your child should be doing this, doing that. So number one is development should guide feeding because yes, childhood feeding problems are all kinds of things where you have a kid who is feeling pressured, usually to eat, and then they shut down and then they're not eating at all.

Jessica Setnick (27m 7s):

And then you're offering the things. But I know you like this, I know you like this. And they are not even eating the things that you know, they like, because they have just mentally shut down from this whole eating experience. And some other feeding problems, I think are trying to get a child to explain to you why they don't want something. And they're a lot of times kids don't have the words for it. We want an explanation. So you end up getting things. And again, this is not for, for infants that you get a child thing. Well, it doesn't look right or it's too hot or too cold, or it's too mushy. And none of those things are really it's. They're trying to come up with an explanation that will satisfy you and get you to stop offering it.

Jessica Setnick (27m 48s):

But really there is no explanation beyond they're telling me isn't hungry for it right now. And so I feel like one of the feeding problems we can try to avoid is like you said, offering something, but there is a limit to when we start to sort of sense that pressure. And I think you can feel it too. The tension is rising because the number one thing that I have seen with kids is that once they get anxious, they will not come to the table. And then you end up with a problem where you're just trying to fight your kid to get to the table, or you're running around with food. Oh my gosh. There's a commercial out there right now with this mother running around. And she's saying one, just one bite just went running around the house.

Katie Ferraro (28m 28s):

First Of all, where are you watching commercials? Secondly, what is that a commercial for? I don't even want to tell you. No, don't tell me

Jessica Setnick (28m 34s):

Kraft, macaroni and cheese. Yeah.

Katie Ferraro (28m 36s):

Which is fine. It's a, sometimes food. We all do it and it's delicious, but running around exactly. It's preying on parents' fears of picky, eating and marketing that we have both have a problem with.

Jessica Setnick (28m 44s):

Right. Like I don't have a problem with Kraft, macaroni and cheese. Now let me tell you, my kids would not eat Kraft, macaroni and cheese. They would only eat Velveeta cheesy shells. And let me assure you that my husband had to drain it because if I drank it, they would be too dry. I mean, this, I am very familiar with this, but never in my weirdest nightmare or what I run around the house, chasing a child with a spoonful of food. Like at some point you have crossed a line. Right. But I get it. I totally get that. It's that fear of like, is someone going to think I'm a bad parent, but let's be honest. If you look at it as an outside person, it's easy to see the chasing your kid around the house with a bite of food on a spoon is not going to help. But when you're in it, I think we've all done things like you said with your no, you know, we've all done things where we're like, wait, did I do that?

Jessica Setnick (29m 27s):

Am I that parent? And that's okay. The good news is you don't have to be perfect all the time. Part of it is that you can model for your child regret and you can say, you know how I was running around the table with you, or I yelled at you because you wouldn't come to the table. You know, I regret that. And I'm sorry that I did that. And I don't want to do it again that way. And you can repair things with your kids. Now you're pre-verbal kids. The way you repair is, you know, you don't pressure them in the same way next time. And they learn. But again, for every bad experience with food, it's going to take many, many good ones to out weigh it. So the best thing is to avoid those bad experiences in the first place. And I like to think of it as taking an imaginary Valium.

Jessica Setnick (30m 8s):

Before you sit down to a meal with your kids and you are just completely Zen about it. You are like sitting across, like in floating three feet above the ground, like the Dalai Lama. That's probably not a good example. I don't really know that the Dalai Lama levitates, but you know what I'm saying? You are just completely Zen.

Katie Ferraro (30m 25s):

Well, yeah, your imaginary valium is my real life. Passive glass of wine before I do dinner, like just take the edge off, sorry.

Jessica Setnick (30m 34s):

But however you manage it, right? If it's that you have to do yoga before meals or whatever, but you are so calm, cool and collected because you know, you've got a well-nourished kid in general and that doesn't mean you are feeling pressured about any one meal, anything they do and don't eat. So whatever you gave them, mashed potatoes and they finger painted with it instead of eating at some point, you just say, okay, I guess that's the end of this meal and you don't worry about it. Now, one thing I will say that he did in the way, one thing that can really get in the way is if you put too much on a kid's plate, then you end up not noticing how much they have eaten. You only notice how much they haven't eaten. And so it really encourage you to go with small portions first for tiny tummies, and then know that you can give someone more and you need to get over the idea that eating more than one portion is too much, or, you know, not finishing is not good.

Jessica Setnick (31m 27s):

I remember when I was a kid, my parents would give me an apple and I would eat a ring around the center of the apple. Cause that was the best part I thought. And then I give it back and because you're a kid and they all do that. And they like, why did you do that? And I look back on that as a dietitian now. And I think, okay, look, what's it happened twice. Like this is a trend. This is not going to change. Now it's on you parents either give me a smaller apple or cut it up in advance or just know you're going to be finishing my apple for me. Right. This is how I'm going to operate. And just because it's not your methodology or the way you would do it, that's totally different. But it's really hard when you put a lot of food on a plate for a kid and you really don't like to waste food. And that's how someone like my husband ended up sitting in front of his mashed potatoes overnight, literally sleeping with his head on the table because he didn't want to finish the mashed potatoes.

Jessica Setnick (32m 16s):

And I mean, these things are real, right? A lot of people listening may have been in that situation. To me, that sounds nuts, but he didn't have bad parents. They were just doing what they thought was right. You're not supposed to waste food. Got it. But the best way to not waste food is to put less in front of the kids and then they can always have more.

Katie Ferraro (32m 34s):

That's a great reminder to parents too. You mentioned like the finger painting with the mashed potatoes, which we talk all about managing mess. The goal is not to prevent the mess because you know, it's part of the sensory experience of learning how to eat is touching it, tasting it's machine, et cetera. But if it like for right now, my example, my aunt is staying with us and she's not as used to my seven kids in the noise and the mess. And I've noticed high anxiety at level at mealtime is higher because of her perception of what's happening at mealtime. If it's just me, I don't care how loud it is. I don't care how messy it is. It's part and parcel of the whole feeding process. And so if you notice other people in your feeding environment who are stressing you out, when you're the primary caregiver and the one in charge of feeding, you have the right to tell other people that they can't be there, especially when your baby's learning how to eat.

Katie Ferraro (33m 16s):

If they stress you out. If you find that they're judging, if they're going to freak out about gagging, like you are the one you're the boss of your house and you do control the feeding environment. And if you can, it's always good to keep the people out who aren't ready to be there yet

Jessica Setnick (33m 28s):

That is a really hard case. Now you're talking about family dynamics and I'm thinking I was 28 years old. The first time I told my mother, no, I mean, this is tough stuff. It's really existential. So I just want to put into my vote for, you know, make sure you have someone that you can talk to about this and whether it's just vent or you want advice either way, let them know which one you want. But it's just really important that you have someone that sort of validates you and helps you feel normal because the more stress that you are at meal times, the more stressed your kid's going to be. And you know, it's very challenging to listen to your hunger cues and what sounds good. And you know, your internal sense of when you've had enough.

Jessica Setnick (34m 8s):

Those are really hard things to listen to when you're stressed out. They're hard enough when you're calm, but when you're stressed out, it becomes almost impossible. Some people eat more when they're stressed, some people eat less, but nobody is really able to do a good job, nourishing themselves under stress. And I agree with you, it's your responsibility as a parent to keep that environment as calm as possible and not calm in the, like, it's all quiet and we're all silent during meals, Katie, I mean calm in terms of no one is being pressured or stressed or rushed, even

Katie Ferraro (34m 37s):

If it's loud or messy. I love your suggestion When you mentioned listening to learning, to respond, to and recognize your own hunger cues. But you have to remember that your babies are learning how to do that right now, too. This is new. And we need your suggestion to just make more appropriate portions, which are small. And then look for your baby's hunger cues, learn how to recognize them and respond to them, which means maybe giving a little more food. We don't want to drip the food, meaning you don't just put a piece out, let the baby eat it. And then put another piece out. You have to guesstimate around what you think your baby will eat, but if they want more, it's fine to give them more. They're learning how to pace themselves in the rate at which to eat. And then what that food makes them feel like this is all a learning process.

Katie Ferraro (35m 17s):

We as adults don't even have it figured out sometimes, but we've certainly engaged in a lot of practices that unteach learning how to listen to and respond to our hunger cues. And we don't want to do that for our babies.

Jessica Setnick (35m 27s):

And I do think talking to other people is so helpful because the things that you get sort of blindered by because they are emotional for you. I think they're not necessarily emotional for someone else. And I'm thinking of an example that I saw online, where someone posted in a question forum, they showed this picture of this child, like screaming at a mealtime. And he had a plate of kind of crazy looking wild spaghetti with sauce on it. And some of the suggestions were just, have you tried something like a rotini where he could pick up a piece? Like how does a baby pick up a piece of a long piece of spaghetti and get that in their mouth? Right? So it's just, sometimes it's simple things that are really, and maybe your kid laughs to pick up spaghetti and put it in their mouth.

Jessica Setnick (36m 10s):

But I guess what I'm saying is sometimes getting an outside person, non-judgmental person and outside non-judgmental person's ideas can be really helpful because there's just times where we just can't see things because we just never did them that way. I mean, the idea of cutting the crest off a peanut butter sandwich, for example, some people are like, well, what are you going to do with the crest? Waste it from, guess what? I never thought of this. But if you thought of cutting the crust off before you make the sandwich, you can use your bread crusts to make breadcrumbs for your next pasta recipe that asks for bread crumbs. But you have to cut them off before you make the peanut butter sandwich. The little tiny things like that, that sometimes are someone else's brilliant idea. You just can't see it because you've never done it that way.

Jessica Setnick (36m 52s):

So I really want to tell everyone, whatever shame or embarrassment you have about the way your kid eats or the way you feel like you're not a good enough parent or whatever you've got to move on from that and get over it. And even if you're just whispering it to one person, you've got to tell someone else what you're going through, because that's the only way you can get support.

Katie Ferraro (37m 8s):

And that's the whole point of this community is to support parents through what can be a really challenging time. And I appreciate your expertise coming on, like to have you sharing these experiences with all of our moms and dads and caregivers who might be really new to this, just knowing, you know, you can do this, you've got this. Does I always say your child will not go to kindergarten in diapers or not knowing how to eat. Like you will get over this as well, but it does always help to have someone who's listening to you. So thank you, Jessica so much for sharing all of this information with us. Where can our audience go to learn more about you and your work?

Jessica Setnick (37m 41s):

Jessicasetnick.com is the easiest place to find me, or if it's easier to remember, understandingnutrition.com, they both go to the same place.

Katie Ferraro (37m 49s):

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Jessica.

Jessica Setnick (37m 51s):

My pleasure. This was a really fun Katie. Thank you for inviting me

Katie Ferraro (37m 54s):

Guys. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Jessica Setnick. She was one of my favorite people on the planet. She is so real, which is what I love about her. I love the idea of the imaginary Valium as well. I'm going to start using that, probably not in conjunction with my large glass of wine because you shouldn't mix the two, but I'm now inspired to work a little bit more on my positive language at feeding time, and also to implement some of the tips that she provided us with on how we can help create a pressure-free feeding environment, because this is hard stuff that we're doing. You guys are doing an awesome job. Again, you can find Jessica stuff at understandingnutrition.com or Jessicasetnick.com. I'll also link to all of the resources she talked about in this episode on the show notes for the podcast, which is at blwpodcast.com, bye now.