Goat Milk, Gut Health and Skin Symptoms with Annie Salsberg, MSc (cand) ND

Annie Salsberg (0s):

Compared to Cows milk, goat milk forms a smaller, softer and looser curd in the stomach. Parents tell us the goat milk foods are gentler on their little ones, tiny tummies.

Katie Ferraro (9s):

Hey There I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietitian, college nutrition professor, and mama of seven, specializing in baby led weaning. Here on the baby led weaning made easy podcast, I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leaving you with the competence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby led weaning. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the baby led weaning made easy podcast. This is your host, Katie Ferraro. And today we're talking to one of my dear friends who knows everything about goat milk. Her name is Annie Salsberg, and she's here on behalf of Kabrita, a company that makes goat milk formula and goat milk products.

Katie Ferraro (54s):

And Annie is my goat milk guru. So whenever I get questions, family members or caregivers about babies, having difficulty with digestion or intolerance with some cows milk protein, or what are some more gentle protein options for babies or children. I'm always asking Annie my goat milk question. So I brought her on today to talk to you guys about goat, milk, gut health, and skin symptoms. So with no further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Annie Salsberg from Kabrita. Well, hi, Annie, and thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

Annie Salsberg (1m 22s):

Hi Katie, thanks so much for having me.

Katie Ferraro (1m 25s):

All right, Annie. So you and I have known each other for about four years now. You are definitely my go-to authority for all things, goat milk. And whenever I have a question from a family about digestibility or goat, milk nutrition, I'm so grateful to have you as a resource. You're like the goat milk guru from Kabrita to talk to. So I know our audience is interested in this topic, but if you don't mind backing it up just a little bit so that they can get acquainted with you. Can you tell us how you came to work at Kabrita and what kind of work you have done and currently do their?

Annie Salsberg (1m 53s):

Of course. Well, first of all, you're going to make me blush a little bit with the goat milk guru, but yeah, no, I'm full to talk about all things goat and you know, I've been with Kabrita for over five years now, but before I joined Kabrita, my roles were really in education. So while I was doing a lot of work in the natural product industry, and I was doing a lot of trainings for adults in their families, and I was talking a lot about nutrition, health, wellbeing, and a lot of natural products. And so through that line of work, I made my way into good Kabrita. I've been working in education and communications and really supporting a lot of healthcare providers with the information they need to be able to talk to their patients and the families they work with about goat, milk and goat, milk based foods.

Katie Ferraro (2m 40s):

I know you are in Canada and you are Canadian. And most of the contacts I know from your company are Canadian, but you're a global company with arms in different countries. How does it work?

Annie Salsberg (2m 49s):

Yes. So the company is based in the Netherlands. So all of our goats, so all of our farms are Dutch farms and a lot of them are family owned. So it's sort of a lovely, co-op a family, a lot of family owned farms based in the Netherlands. And yes Kabrita is available globally. So we have four sold in over 25 countries right now, which is pretty amazing. Ironically, as you said, I am based up in Canada. Maybe my accent will betray me, but yes, I'm in Canada. But currently in North America, our products are exclusively available in the United States. So it's been a pretty fun ride supporting the US business up in Canada, but it's been pretty straightforward, actually a little bit of challenges in the last six months, but borrowing that, it's been pretty seamless.

Katie Ferraro (3m 31s):

When it comes to goat milk. If you could just maybe educate us about goat milk products and how goat milk differs from cows milk, because our audience is very familiar with cows milk and cow's milk protein is one of the big eight allergenic foods, but I don't think they know a ton about goat milk.

Annie Salsberg (3m 46s):

So, you know, there's a lot of ways that we could talk about the differences. I try to keep it fairly simple. And so you mentioned cow milk proteins, so that's probably what I'll zoom in on. So both cow and goat obviously have a proteins, two big groups of proteins. So I'm going to kind of get a little science-y here, but the two major groups of proteins in cow and goat milk are both whey and casein. And so these are groups of proteins and both cow and, goat have about 80% of their proteins casein. And, 20% is whey. So this would be different than for example, breast milk, which is a slightly different ratio. So superficially, they look kind of similar because they have this similar casein to whey ratio.

Annie Salsberg (4m 29s):

But if you were to zoom in on the types of casein in cow and goat, you'd see a lot of differences. And the difference that I usually like to highlight is the amount of a type of casein called alpha-S1 casein. So this is the type of a scene that really contributes to the curd that would be formed in a tummy. So I usually like to encourage people to remember the nursery rhyme, you know, little miss Muffet sat on her, tuffet eating her curds and whey. So, you know, what we're talking about is when you consume milk, the protein or the casein part, it goes into the acidic environment of your stomach and it curdles. So that casein component curdles, it forms a curd, whereas the whey component, it stays liquid, it's actually digested a little bit more readily and more quickly.

Annie Salsberg (5m 16s):

So the casein proteins form a curd in the tummy and that alpha-S1 casein, the one that I pointed out that's quite different between goat and cow, it contributes to the size and the density of the curd formed in the tummy. So cow milk has fair bit more alpha-S1 casein then does goat milk. And so what that means is that you end up with a curd that's larger, firmer, and just overall denser. When you get less LFS, when casein and as is the case in goat's milk, you end up with smaller, softer and loose curds. Actually I've had the opportunity to look at them under microscopes or like an electron microscope. And they look quite fluffy.

Annie Salsberg (5m 57s):

They almost look airy-like, like clouds. So they're a lot spacier. I can use that very untechnical term. And so it allows the digestive enzymes to really get in there and break down that curd a lot more readily.

Katie Ferraro (6m 8s):

There's a smaller curd. Does that then play into, cause I know for some families there, maybe if the baby's had, or the child has had difficulties with some digestive issues or tummy troubles that in some cases that goat's milk protein might be more easily digested, would that then be related to the size of the curd that you were just describing?

Annie Salsberg (6m 27s):

As I mentioned, there are a number of different proteins, but when it comes to the curd, we know that proteins that are not digested as readily as quickly, you know, they can create potentially for some children, some challenges or some functional issues. For example, a lot of families will tell us that their baby's experience reflux and we know reflux for some babies or little ones can be related to you, a food sitting there for longer. And so what we understand is that curds that are broken down more readily will pass through the digestive tract more quickly, more comfortably. And so, you know, what we believe is that it will be more comfortable for these little ones.

Katie Ferraro (7m 3s):

And I know in my experience, a lot of the families that discover and start experimenting or exploring goat milk as an alternative to cow's milk. They kind of stumble upon your particular brand, Kabrita. I know a one mom that I was working with, Julia, she had a lot of issues and she had to eliminate cow's milk from her diet because her baby had some intolerances and she, as her baby kind of approached the one-year mark, she was looking for some different alternatives and she's like, oh, have you ever heard of this brand, Kabrita? It sounds like moms were doing a lot of research on their own. And I was curious if you could just shed some light on what sort of conditions or disorders or preferences and tolerances are out there that parents come like finding goat milk to be then a solution for them. What are they looking for when they discover your brand and goat milk?

Annie Salsberg (7m 46s):

I do want to say that, you know, we have a lot of parents who tell us that for them, for a variety of reasons, goat isn't even, I would say like a gentle first choice. So some families even without challenges or any sort of perception or, or symptoms of the, from the child, you know, may just want something really gentle from the start. So we definitely hear that from a lot of families, but you make a really great point for a lot of families, a goat milk based food, formula, porridge, etc. It will be a switch product. And really it's because of a challenge that they're perceiving in their little one or their child. So yeah, I would say most parents tell us their child is experiencing some sort of digestive or skin discomfort or disturbance or symptom.

Annie Salsberg (8m 27s):

And we hear things like reflux. We hear things like constipation, gas, or bloating. Some children will even experience the opposite end, that experience more diarrhea. And then when it comes to skin symptoms, in what we hear from a lot of families is their little one has rashes or even, you know, mild to moderate eczema. So for these families, when they either on their own or working with a healthcare provider and they're really sort of paying close attention and looking at possible dietary triggers. And if they start to think that cow milk could be the trigger and they're looking for a swap that's when they start to look for an alternative. And so for a lot of these families, they want to give something gentler, try, which could be goat milk and could be Kabrita products.

Katie Ferraro (9m 7s):

And I know you mentioned the eczema. I remember when my quadruplets just turned two, we didn't have any issues of allergy or intolerance or anything, but one of my quadruplets had some pretty significant eczema that kind of popped up. And so based on a recommendation from our pediatrician actually, which I was surprised by, he suggested doing a two week swap for goats milk instead of cow's milk with him. And so we actually did use the Kabrita goat milk. I think it was a toddler formula powder. We were cooking with it as well, because at that point he was eating all the same family foods. So it was kind of incorporating into foods and then having him drink it as well. And we definitely saw improvement even after as little as two weeks, which I was surprised by. Would you say that's typical or does it sometimes take longer? I know every skin situation, every baby is different, but in this particular case it was eczema.

Annie Salsberg (9m 51s):

Yeah. I would say, you know, of course any parent will know that every child, if you, especially, if you have more than one child, every child is so unique. That being said, I do think that when parents were making a switch, you know, usually within a week to two weeks, I think that is pretty typical, especially I typically would think that would be on the longer end, but when it comes to like a tummy trouble, sometimes even in as short as three to five days, parents are letting us know that their little one is feeling more comfortable or they're tolerating the product really well. We know that a number of foods can be triggers and for a few reasons, you know, I think cow milk is wonderful. I have no personal issue with it, but I, you know, it certainly maybe is not the right choice for all children. And so I think a lot of parents start to suspect that it could be the underlying cause.

Annie Salsberg (10m 35s):

You know, especially if it's in the diet every day in the form of full milk, possibly yogurt, cheeses, etc. And it's really starts to creep in there. And then parents start to think, you know, is there something that the child is being exposed to every day that's creating this symptoms? So I don't think two weeks is unexpected when it comes to symptom resolution for those families who are experiencing something,

Katie Ferraro (10m 55s):

I thought it was so fast. And I was like, oh, I'm just wanting this to be over. I'm willing this to happen. But I really did see a difference in a short period of time. And again, skin is so sensitive for some babies than other babies. You know, you do the same protocol, especially with like four babies. I'll do the same thing for all of them. And the reactions would be totally different. It was like, you kind of can't win for losing sometimes, but you mentioned of allergies. And I know a lot of our audience, parents and caregivers are aware of the current research and guidance that supports the early and often introduction of potentially allergenic foods. For families who are allergic to cow's milk protein ,is goat milk, a viable alternative for them?

Annie Salsberg (11m 29s):

I wish I could say it is, but it is not. So I was talking about those different proteins and so how, you know, superficially the cow and goat, it looks similar. And then when I specifically was talking about casein, and how there's differences. That being said, there are some other proteins that are still very similar because some of the proteins that are in cow milk may also be present in goat's milk, It's not recommended to consume goat milk. If your child has a diagnosed or a confirmed cow milk protein allergy, we've had families let us know that they've tolerated goat's milk. Well, which is always exciting to hear. But, you know, we, we really try to disclose really clearly that if your child has a diagnosed or confirmed allergy, it's not recommended.

Annie Salsberg (12m 11s):

And we always encourage families to check with their health care provider before making any feeding changes.

Katie Ferraro (12m 15s):

That's what I really appreciate you coming on today to talk about goat milk, because it is kind of one of those gray areas like allergies are so black and white. If your child is allergic to it, the only therapy is to avoid it, but with intolerances, they can't even diagnose them in many cases. And then when we can, the way different children respond to them is totally different. You almost do have to kind of do a trial and error. So it's nice that there are products like the Kabrita products out there that parents can experiment with because what works for one child, especially in the case of an intolerance may not work for another. I wanted to ask you about some of the different products. I know you guys Kabrita does have a goat milk formula. I remember even when I met you a while ago, I think you guys even had yogurt, which I believe you no longer have as a product anymore, but you do have other products outside of goat milk based formulas.

Katie Ferraro (12m 59s):

Could you share a little bit about those in case families want to check them out outside of the formula line?

Annie Salsberg (13m 4s):

Sure. I would love to. Yeah. So in addition to the gut milk toddler formula, I'm really thrilled to say that we also currently offer two organic goat milk based porridges. So one is a multi-grain flavor. The other is apple cinnamon. Both are delicious on their own, and both are also amazing to use in baking. I have older boys and I use it in my baking and the kids love it and take it readily. So it's lovely. And it's a great way to sort of boost your homemade baked goods or pancake recipe or however using it. And then the other item that we have, which has been a huge hit, our snack puffs or goat cheese based snack puffs, and my only beef with our snack puffs is that they don't make them in bigger sizes for adults.

Katie Ferraro (13m 50s):

I know they go like hotcakes. They're very popular in my house.

Annie Salsberg (13m 54s):

Very, very popular. You know, like I said, I have older boys, if it wasn't a little embarrassing to send something that looks like it was designed for younger children, my older boys would definitely take it to school.

Katie Ferraro (14m 3s):

Oh, I think your packaging is it's very discreet. I don't think you could say it's for babies.

Annie Salsberg (14m 8s):

It was discreet. You're right. You're right. But no, that's a huge hit. And like I said, they fly off the shelves and a lot of families love them. They're quite nice and crunchy. They're super gentle because they have the goat milk cheese on them instead of the typical cow milk cheese. And they're really a nice size for hand grasping, hand-eye coordination, all that kind of stuff. So a lot of parents love them, you know, nine months plus just sort of picking it up and self-serving so it's been really well received.

Katie Ferraro (14m 33s):

And when you mentioned puffs, I always just like to clarify that we're not talking like little tiny puffs, the little starch balls that can certainly be a choking hazard for babies that you see traditionally sold as baby foods. These puffs are more like, I like to them to call them Cheetos in the United States. I don't know what the equivalent is there, but they're about the size of the baby's finger. So it's a longer piece that the baby can scoop up and self feed. And I really liked those puffs because they're the great size for babies who can, especially before they have their pincer grasp, they can use that whole hand grasp to scoop it up and feed themselves. But it's a fabulous way for babies to be introduced to the new flavor and the new food of goat cheese, which often times commercial goat cheese is so high in sodium. It's not appropriate for babies, but these Kabrita goat cheese puffs again, have that great, the real goat cheese in there flavor, but without all of the sodium.

Katie Ferraro (15m 19s):

So it's a great baby led weaning food as well.

Annie Salsberg (15m 21s):

Yeah I agree. And that parents tell us that they love it for that reason. It's the way it's been adapted to be nutritionally appropriate for little ones is perfect. Is really ideal.

Katie Ferraro (15m 30s):

Yeah because so many foods that are out there that are marketed to children, of course, as we know, have so much added sugar and so much added salt, especially which babies should be avoiding both. You mentioned cooking with the porridge. It just recently developed for Kabrita, a low sugar cookie recipe using the porridge as an ingredient. And so if you guys are interested in that, I'm going to link to that recipe on the show notes page for this episode. Now it's technically a cookie, but it has no added sugar in it. So I kind of likened it to more of a muffin. But as a result of that project, did have to start cooking more with the porridge and it's been fabulous. It's a great way to add just a little bit of subtle sweetness, but it's a naturally occurring sugar because it comes from the milk sugar Lactose, is where the sweet taste comes from and not from added sugars, which of course we should be avoiding for babies.

Katie Ferraro (16m 17s):

So if you guys want to grab that low sugar, the goat milk porridge recipe for the cookie, I'll link it at the show notes, which is at blwpodcast.com/62. So Annie, I wanted to ask in closing, I know you teach and answer questions from parents and families all the time about goat, milk and goat milk products. I was wondering if you could share maybe like the top three myths about goat milk that you hear out there that you could help dispel here on this podcast?

Annie Salsberg (16m 44s):

I'm really happy that you asked that because there's a lot of goat milk myths out there. Okay. So if I had to think of three myths that I hear, probably the first that is really quite rampant on the internet is that goat milk is the closest or is the same as breast milk. And it's not, I guess I'll just dispel that myth really quickly.

Katie Ferraro (17m 7s):

I mean, I guess if you are a goat, then it would be your mom's breast milk.

Annie Salsberg (17m 11s):

If you were a little kid, no pun intended, if you were a goat kid, but then it would be suitable. But goat milk is wonderful for so many reasons, but nothing will ever equal or replace human breast milk. And so, you know, we think it's a wonderful basis for formula, but I just want to be always be super clear because there's, I see a lot of posts and comparisons. And so I just feel like it's good to just get that for the record. Yeah. So that would be the first. The second would be, I hear a lot of people say that goat milk is easier to digest because it's lactose free. And as you just correctly pointed out with our porridges, the natural sweetness comes from lactose.

Annie Salsberg (17m 51s):

So goat milk has this natural sugar, which is lactose, which is the same milk sugar that's in cow milk, which is the same milk sugar that happens to be in breast milk. Since I just mentioned breast milk, there is a little bit less lactose marginally, less lactose in goat milk than cow milk, but not a huge amount less. So it is definitely not lactose free. So usually when people tell me that they noticed digestive improvements or benefits from switching over to goat based foods, you know, and they say it's because it's lactose free. I try to gently suggest that maybe it's more has to do with the proteins and not so much with the lactose content. And then the third myth which we already covered. But I'll just reiterate here is that goat milk is suitable for children with cow milk allergy.

Annie Salsberg (18m 32s):

And as we already said, really important for parents to know that if your child has a confirmed cow milk allergy, then goat milk based foods would not be suitable. It's more, as you suggested, it may be more suitable for children with sensitivities or intolerances.

Katie Ferraro (18m 45s):

Okay, wonderful. So I appreciate you dispelling those myths too, because you do see so much misinformation out there. And I think goat milk is wonderful for lots of reasons, but it's certainly not for everyone. So thanks for clearing the air on that. And for the parents and caregivers in the listening audience who are interested, maybe in trialing some goat milk products or making the switch from cows milk to goat milk for all of the, I love the word use of the word gentle in our conversations, you always are mentioning. And then, you know, it's more gentle on the tummies and in some cases may be better for children for a number of different reasons. What can parents do if they do want to make that switch? Like how can they make that transition go smoothly?

Annie Salsberg (19m 21s):

So I find most children make the switch really seamlessly. I'm not sure how your little ones did, but most parents tell us it's a pretty easy switch if they're using our formula and sort of making it up in a bottle or a sippy cup, a lot of parents do enjoy doing a five-day switch where you would slowly reduce whether it's breast milk in the bottle or a cow milk formula, and slowly increase the amount of Kabrita typically over five days. Most people will do that. Really it's more about getting the child more, their palette, a little bit more accustomed to the slightly different tastes, but really what that five days, which some people do it in two days. Some people just make the, the cold switch.

Katie Ferraro (19m 55s):

I feel like I'm a mean mom so I definitely did it cold Turkey. I was like, you're done with cows.

Annie Salsberg (19m 59s):

Yeah some people just go for it. Some people just like to make a slower transition. So typically with the formula we do recommend just to make it as smooth as possible, a five day transition with the puffs and the porridges. I have not really heard of too many people making the slow transition. It's sort of, here's your new puff? Here's your new port and the children just go wild for it. So that's the feedback I've gotten on that front.

Katie Ferraro (20m 22s):

I know historically when people ask me, like, where do you get Kabrita from and your website, Kabritausa.com has a ton of great information about goat milk, nutrition, and why goat milk. But it also teaches a little bit about the different products that are available. And I know they used to be a free trial offer where parents could try out some of the brands kind of at a low stakes trial period, essentially. Do you still have that offer? And is that the best place for parents to learn about the product?

Annie Salsberg (20m 47s):

Yeah, I would absolutely encourage parents who are interested to go to kabritausa.com. Like you said, at the very top of the page, there's a nice, very hopefully clear banner that invites you to click, to get our trial offer. It's really the best way to try the formula, the puffs and the porridge. Plus you get a whole bunch of coupons. So if your child likes it, it makes it hopefully really easy for you to get it again. It tells you where we're available. We're available nationwide in whole foods market where available at Sprouts market. If you prefer to shop online, you can get us on Amazon or walmart.com or even costco.com or even our own web shop. So I do think that the trial offers are really the best, that there's just a little bit for shipping and handling.

Annie Salsberg (21m 29s):

But outside of that, you get to try the sample sizes of the, all the products. And like I said, you get the coupons for repurchase.

Katie Ferraro (21m 35s):

And I see so many parents who go to try the formula and like, oh, the puffs are amazing. Or the porridge is amazing. And I think it's nice that you have a little bit of a larger product portfolio now because what works for one family might not work for another. And I was so excited. I'm actually a big Sprouts person and I saw Kabrita in my Sprouts recently. And I thought that was really cool because I usually would just get it on Amazon or direct from your site. And I believe at least in the US I think it's $5 for shipping and handling. Is that what you pay to get the trial package?

Annie Salsberg (22m 2s):

That's right $4.99, but yeah, essentially.

Katie Ferraro (21m 59s):

$4.99. Okay. All right. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been so informational. Again, you guys, kabritausa.com or if you go to the show notes page for this episode, it's at blwpodcast.com/62. I'll link to all of the resources that Annie was talking about. I'll share my no added sugar goat, milk porridge cookie recipe, and then some more information about goat, milk nutrition there. So thank you so much for being here, Annie. This Is fabulous.

Annie Salsberg (22m 26s):

Thank you so much, Katie. This was super fun.