Gill Rapley (0s):

Baby led weaning is an approach that trusts the baby. It's really not possible to trust a baby at one meal and not at another meal, or to trust them for the first part of the meal, and then give them a few spoonfuls at the end. So there's a combination of feeding methods.

Katie Ferraro (15s):

Hey, there I'm Katie Ferraro, Registered Dietitian college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby led weaning here on the baby led weaning made easy podcast. I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leaving you with the competence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby led weaning. Well, Hey guys, welcome to episode 200 of the BABY LED WEANING MADE EASY podcast, so excited for this milestone and we're bringing back one of the most important people. The most important person in Baby led Weaning Gill Rapley is on today.

Katie Ferraro (56s):

If you're not familiar with GIll Rapley, she is the woman who wrote the original Baby led Weaning books. She's the co-author, I should say, along with Tracy Murkettco-author of the Baby led Weaning the essential guide book. She's the founding philosopher of the Baby led Weaning movement. She's been on the podcast a number of times now, but today we're talking about Combo Feeding or combination feeding. And a lot of times i'll encounter parents who were like, I'm not really sure about this Baby led Weaning thing. Like I liked the way it sounds in theory, but in practice, I think I'm still going to do some spoonfeeding. So they call it Combo Feeding. And I wanted to ask GIll Rapley. Is it a thing like, can you successfully do a combination of Traditional Spoon feeding and Baby led Weaning, but call it baby led weaning.

Katie Ferraro (1m 42s):

So that's what today's episode is all about. We're talking about combination feeding and Can I Do baby led weaning with traditional spoon Feeding Together. This is the opinion of, and in the words of Gill Rapley, PhD, founding philosopher of the Baby led Weaning movement.

Gill Rapley (2m 2s):

Thank you so much for inviting me back, Katie. It's lovely to be with you.

Katie Ferraro (2m 6s):

We got to celebrate episode 100 of this podcast with you. Last year, we were talking about the history and the future of Baby led Weaning today's episode. This is episode 200, so I'm excited. You're here for another milestone. And before we dive in for those who may not know your story, Gill, could you share just a brief history and how is it that you came to create this approach to Starting Solid Foods that we know as Baby led Weaning?

Gill Rapley (2m 31s):

It goes back to my days as a health visitor, which is little like a pediatric public health nurse. And I met with many, many families who were struggling with introducing solid foods to their babies and the baby would be refusing to eat certain foods or effect mostly refusing to be spoonfed. I reckon they all, from what we talk about as food refusal is actually feeding refusal. I think anyway, it seemed that these babies were so much happier. If they fed themselves, I would encourage the parents to do that. But back in those days, we were Starting Solid Foods at all months or so, and these problems were arising maybe seven or eight months.

Gill Rapley (3m 10s):

And so this approach to self feeding was a kind of remedy for problems, not a way of starting out. And then when the world health organization changed their recommendation for the minimum age to six months. Suddenly all fell into place because I knew from the other side of my work, which was around child development and developmental checks on babies that at six months they could sit up, reach out for things, bring them to their mouth and make chewing movements. So these were clearly signs that they were ready to feed themselves with solid food. So all that was left was the question was, well, why not just let them do it then if that's what they can do at six months, why would we want to intervene and try something else? And so that's really how it came about.

Katie Ferraro (3m 52s):

That's a very long history summarized very quickly. And I will share in the show notes for this episode, our other interviews together. So for those people who are interested in going back and learning about the history of Baby led, Weaning your opinions about the future. I know you've been on to talk about some of the biggest Baby led Weaning myths. You can listen to all of that there, but today we're going to talk a little bit about terminology and definitions. So I eventually want to get to this idea of Combo Feeding, but before we do that, maybe could we back it up the term baby led weaning? I think the Weaning part is confusing because depending upon where you are in the world, weaning might mean something different. So Gill, what do you define as quote unquote, Weaning?

Gill Rapley (4m 35s):

Let's just wait a second. Before I give you my definition, the two that we hear about most often would be the cessation of breastfeeding. And that would be common, I think in USA. And if I'm right, it not only means the stopping of breastfeeding in favor of some solid foods, but even perhaps the stopping of breastfeeding in favor of formula feeding, right at the beginning, you know, moms will say they've weaned their baby from the breast. And they've moved to formula way before. We're really talking about the possibility of solids in the UK. It tends to mean the introduction of solid foods and, irrespective of whether the baby is breastfed or formula fed. At that point, it's all around solid foods.

Gill Rapley (5m 17s):

And I looked in a few texts when I was doing my research and my studies for the books I've written and so on and found that actually the word means to gradually a climatize, the baby to something new or to get him off something, but he's used to. So it's number one, it's a gradual process. It's not something that happens on one day and the process of weaning from the breast. Or I prefer to think of it as from infant milk, whether that'd be breast milk or formula should be a gradual one. So the very beginning of Weaning is the baby's first mouthful of something other than either breast milk or breast milk substitutes.

Gill Rapley (5m 59s):

So the first mouthful of solid food is the beginning of Weaning, but winning doesn't end until the last mouthful of infant milk, breast milk or formula. So that can take maybe, usually at least six months and often 18 months or, or even several years. So weaning, it's a quite a long process. And whereas many parents didn't think of themselves as having weaned their baby until Weaning is complete in the states. Anyway, whereas in the, in the UK, who would say, why have we, my baby, because I've started solids, it's kind of like both of those things are true and yet neither of them, because weaning starts in one place and ends in another and it's everything in between.

Gill Rapley (6m 39s):

So, whereas at first, when I was challenged about the term Baby led Weaning, I was a little bit kind of uncertain whether I'd chosen the right phrase, but actually I really believe it is correct because we have a load of books talking about how breastfeeding, for example, should end, whether it should be the mom or the baby who leads the way. But very, very little has been talked about in terms of who stops that process, who makes the decision to take the first mouthful of something other than milk. And so that's how I see Baby led Weaning as being really taking the baby its position in the whole thing, including the very beginning. So my focus has been on the beginning where others are focused on the end.

Katie Ferraro (7m 22s):

And I love that you mentioned that it is a continuum. It is a process. Now one of the gals that works for us, first-time mom, she was starting baby led weaning with her baby. And she actually called me the night before she was getting ready to start. And she said, so wait a minute. Is this my last time breastfeeding? My baby? And I said, oh my gosh, no. And I'm so sorry that, that hasn't been made apparently clear to you that your baby will continue to get the majority of their nutrition from infant milk as you call it as they're learning how to eat. Right. We don't just flip a switch overnight, turn the milk off, turn the food on anyone. Who's started solid foods with the baby knows it's a very slow and sometimes tedious process, but it's okay because your baby's still getting most of that nutrition from the infant milk, but it doesn't go like that forever, right?

Katie Ferraro (8m 9s):

By the time baby has one. Ideally we want them getting the majority of their nutrition from food and not from milk, but they don't wake up overnight knowing how to do that on their first birthday. do they? No, and I think the world health organizations tone complimentary feeding is very useful because that shows us that breastfeeding or formula feeding carries on. And the other foods solid foods initially are just to compliment that, that just a very, very small amounts in addition to give the baby that extra little bit of nutrition that he may be beginning to need. But if we think of it in terms of a continuum, it allows the baby time to make adjustments and develop the skills that he needs.

Katie Ferraro (8m 50s):

So complimentary feeding is a really nice term. It's just a bit of a mouthful. If we were to talk about baby led, complimentary feeding, complementary feeding, doesn't describe weaning if you like, it's what you do during Weaning.

Gill Rapley (9m 3s):

So they're kind of a little bit synonymous, the two terms, but not quite.

Katie Ferraro (9m 6s):

And I think complimentary feeding always implies that the milk is continuing to go on and on forever, which yes, you're welcome to breastfeed for as long as both you and baby are comfortable for, but for our parents who are formula feeding, they want to be done at 12 months of age because they want to be done purchasing that and switch the baby to cow's milk, which was much more affordable. And at that point, the baby's getting a lot of other nutrition from food. I love complimentary feeding, but when you speak about it being a mouthful, I have a friend who's an eating disorder, dietitian, and she's like, Katie, I love all this Baby led Weaning stuff, but I just hate the name. It's such a mouthful. And I said, but it's a little bit enigmatic. Like parents sometimes are like, I need to learn more about that because to be honest in the U S we don't use the term Weaning as frequently as I think is used just in the everyday parlance of parenting.

Katie Ferraro (9m 55s):

Like people here think of Weaning in relation to baby led weaning and that's thanks of course, to all of the work that you've done in the field. So I would say you've really laid claim to the term Weaning, but yes, the Baby led complimentary Weaning would be too much to say for sure. Now, can I ask you about baby led feeding? Because sometimes you hear people say that they're doing baby led feeding. How is that different from baby led weaning if it is at all?

Gill Rapley (10m 21s):

I think that baby led feeding is a term that some people use to avoid having to use the term baby day waiting to be less ambiguous, but baby led feeding can also apply of course, to the milk feeding part of feeding. So many people would use that in exchange for the word responsive feeding, for example, or even demand feeding. They would prefer to say baby led feeding. So I think that's a wider term that encompasses more than just the solid food part of things, but it's a concept that covers both really well. You know, it's about responding to the baby. It's about doing what the baby is indicating that he or she is ready for it and wants to do.

Katie Ferraro (11m 3s):

And I have to admit with baby led feeding, really try to stay away from the word feeding because at the end of the day, you, as the parent are not feeding the baby it's baby led eating. And so, yes, we play a role in the feeding relationship, but I know, especially in the United States, I do a lot of work with our state WIC association. So that's our government program for low income and nutritionally at risk women, infant, and children. And it's a big government program and they literally have a list of words you can, and can't say they don't love the term baby led weaning. So whenever I'm doing my proposals to speak at the state associations, because they're interested in the topic and we want to show the research that supports a Baby led approach, I always have to call it a Baby led approach to starting solids or a Baby led approach to Weaning.

Katie Ferraro (11m 51s):

And then they'll accept the proposal. But if it says baby led Weaning in it, I know exactly which states they don't like that term for whatever reason. And at the end of the day, I don't care. I want them to be aware of the research that supports a Baby led approach as a safe and viable alternative to traditional spoonfeeding. So sometimes you kind of have to play the game with regards to the words. Could you share a little bit about BLISS because parents will sometimes say, well, I'm going to do a BLISS approach to baby led weaning. And what do they mean when they're saying that Gill?

Gill Rapley (12m 21s):

Well, BLISS is a term that was coined by a group of researchers in New Zealand who were comparing Baby led Weaning with the more conventional spoon-feeding. And they were aware that there were concerns that Baby led Weaning may not adequately address the baby's iron needs or that there might be choking risks. And so they gave extra input to parents who were going to take a baby that approach in their research by giving them extra information about iron rich foods and abouts foods that might present a choking risk. And so they called that BLISS baby led introduction to solids because they were defining things a little bit more clearly than simply baby led weaning.

Gill Rapley (13m 4s):

It also addressed the issue of perhaps people using the term Baby led Weaning without really defining it correctly. I should say that the essence of the BLISS approach is the same as baby led weaning. They just, as I say, picked on a couple of areas to clarify with the parents and to make sure that there was no risk, I'd have to say I'm a little bit unsure about the term. Very often, people who talk about BLISS are keen to differentiate it from Baby led Weaning as if Baby led Weaning didn't pay any attention to iron or choking risks. And that's absolutely not true. There is nothing in anything I've written or said about baby led weaning, which says that you should not have iron rich rich foods or that you should not take care, not to offer foods that are obvious choking risk.

Gill Rapley (13m 52s):

So their attempt to clarify did slightly cost. Baby led weaning in a bad light, which I think was unfortunate. But that's the reason for that term. It was to clarify a particular piece of piece of,

Katie Ferraro (14m 6s):

I agree with you. If you look at the BLISS research, a lot of times parents will say, well, that means it's better than baby led weaning. And I said, it's just Baby led Weaning plus a little bit of education. And that's why we encourage parents. Yes, you should be educated no matter what modality you're choosing to feed your child about reducing choking risks and ensuring that eventually they learn to get enough iron. But I agree with you, nowhere in the original baby led weaning book or anything you've written, does it ever make favor for foods that would be low iron or have any policies that would increase choking risk? I think that was kind of the researcher's interpretation. And unfortunately when parents do dive deep in the research, they say, well, oh, it must be better than baby led weaning. And I say, I don't think you're understanding perhaps the research design of the BLISS trials, but you're actually starting to see more parents asking about it, which is good.

Katie Ferraro (14m 53s):

It means that they're looking at the research and they want to be sure that this is an evidence based approach to Starting Solid Foods and a safe, alternative to traditional spoonfeeding. So I can see kind of both sides of the argument there. So Jill, what about combination feeding? I know personally as a new mom, trying to figure this out before I started working with families in baby led weaning, whenever I heard the term combination feeding, it was generally from parents who theoretically liked the idea of Baby led Weaning, but would admit that they were fearful about relinquishing control and they still wanted to do some aspects of traditional parent led spoon feeding as well. So what are your thoughts on this Combo approach to Baby led Weaning?

Katie Ferraro (15m 36s):

Is it such a thing? I think

Gill Rapley (15m 38s):

There's a couple of things going on here. One is, as you say, parents being reluctant or finding it difficult to relinquish the control to the baby for so long, we've been taught that we have to control very carefully what babies eat. And so letting go of that seems hard and it's difficult for parents and professionals to go that extra step. So I absolutely understand the wish to retain some control, but the point of that baby led weaning is that it is an approach that trusts the baby. So it's really not possible to trust a baby at one meal and not at another meal, or to trust them for the first part of the meal. And then give them a few spoonfuls at the end to make sure that they've eaten enough, that that doesn't really doesn't work.

Gill Rapley (16m 22s):

It's not a Baby led approach. So it was a combination of feeding methods, allowing some self feeding and doing some spoon-feeding, but it's not a combination of approaches because that really isn't possible. The other big problem that I have with this idea is that even when we were Starting Solid Foods say four months, generally parents were advised to introduce some sort of finger foods for the baby to hold from around six months. So in other words, there's nothing new about babies feeding themselves from about six months. What makes Baby led Weaning different is that that's the way the whole thing starts. And they only do that. You don't have a preceding period of puree feeding and what nobody has really described since we made the change to a six months start, which is absolutely the way things should be.

Gill Rapley (17m 12s):

That's when babies are truly ready round, about six months later, of course, nobody's really described what the conventional approach the spoonfeeding approach should look like. If you haven't already been spoon-feeding for a couple of months, how exactly do you start and how much of what you're doing should be spoonfeeding and how much would it be? The self feeding that always was encouraged from that age? Should you spoon feed for a couple of weeks for a month? You know, nobody's really explained that. So back when we started solid foods at four months, six months, wasn't a thing there was nothing particular happening at months in terms of the pureed feeding, except some finger foods were being introduced on top of that, alongside it.

Gill Rapley (17m 56s):

And some babies having more finger foods than others, but one had described what should be happening at that stage. And quite rightly because every baby is different, but now we're presented with the need to know how to start solid feeding at six months. And if you're not doing baby led weaning, then some of it's going to be spoon-feeding, but we don't have guidance on how much kind of what the mix should be. So the result is that people who don't have that history of starting at four months think that when they give their baby some finger foods at six months, they all doing a combination of baby led. And spoon-feeding actually, they know that just doing the traditional or conventional style of weening as it would be.

Gill Rapley (18m 40s):

If you started at six months, I don't know. It's a complicated thing to get our heads around. Baby led. Weaning just takes out the curing and spoon-feeding so you can't do a combination of no spoonfeeding and some spoon-feeding, if you're doing some spoon-feeding, then you're doing something which isn't quite Baby led Weaning, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. And I understand where parents are coming from when they feel they need to do that. As you say, it's the terminology that's difficult.

Katie Ferraro (19m 7s):

And when you mentioned these parents who say, oh, I'm doing a combination of some spoonfeeding and some Baby led Weaning the spoonfeeding there. The implication you guys is that that's parent led spoon feeding. The parent is taking an arbitrary amount of food and pushing it in the baby's mouth. Gill, could you speak a little bit about the idea of incorporating spoons with a Baby led approach and what are your thoughts on that?

Gill Rapley (19m 31s):

Yeah. Thank you for that question. Really good one. So there's often a perception that Baby led Weaning means you never give your baby a puree and you never use spoons a tool. That's absolutely not the case. Babies can spoon feed themselves. They can be given a spoon preloaded with something like yogurt, and then they can manage it equally. There are some foods that if the adult would normally eat it in a, a puree taught foam like yogurt or apple sauce or oatmeal, then obviously they're going to offer it like that to the baby. The difference is who's putting the food into the baby's mouth. That's the crux. That's the real difference. If the parent is putting the food in the baby's mouth, however, willing the baby is to accept it.

Gill Rapley (20m 12s):

That's still parent led. If the baby's putting the food into his mouth, whether it be on the spoon, whether it be pureed or a piece of solid food that's baby led,

Katie Ferraro (20m 21s):

It makes perfect sense. And if we frame the discussion as parent led versus Baby led, it becomes very clear why you can not do a combination of traditional spoon-feeding, which the synonym for that would be parent led spoon feeding, because that is not baby led. I think you said it perfectly. The question is who is doing the feeding in baby led? The name says it all the baby is leading the way.

Gill Rapley (20m 47s):

I'm very interested in words. I like words. And I think the point you made earlier about first doing with feeding and you've just reiterated is really important. The way we use the word feeding, we assume it's an active verb. It's someone doing it to someone else. And yet when we talk about animals feeding, that means they are eating babies, feed the breast moms don't, breastfeed their baby. They provide the opportunity for the baby to do the feeding. If you've ever tried to force a baby who doesn't want to feed at the breast to feed, you know that it's impossible. It's the baby who does the feeding, but we use that word in considerable different ways. And so that's where the confusion creeps thing.

Katie Ferraro (21m 26s):

And I love how, whenever you're talking about your history previously as a health visitor, you said it wasn't so much the food that the babies disliked. It was the feeding being done to them. And I think if you think of that prototypical picture of a parent shoving a long-handled spoon of food into a baby's mouth, and they're turning their face away, you know, there honestly are some parents that they want that experience. They think that's funny. They want to send the pictures to grandparents. And when I see those pictures, it breaks my heart into, because you can tell that that baby's first forays into solid foods are not positive and Babies can feed themselves. But as you always say, you know, none of this works if we're not waiting until six months of age.

Katie Ferraro (22m 7s):

So for those of you who are just getting to know Gill rally's philosophy, she's all about the six months. And that's remarkably different from what we used to hear, which was as early as four months and, you know, developmentally a four month old baby is remarkably different from a six month old baby. But unfortunately, Joel, I know what happens in the UK too. We have primary care practitioners telling parents all the time, start solid foods, anywhere between four to six months like to you and me a two month gap is not a big deal because we've been on this planet for decades, but to babies, it's so important to wait until that six month mark. So could you just drive over the six month mark one more time? Cause I know that there are parents that need to hear this message from you,

Gill Rapley (22m 45s):

Parent, who has the same videos as that baby grows up, will recognize that what a baby can do at four months and what they can do at six months are completely different things. At six months, they are ready to feed themselves. Or very soon off the roundabout that age they're able to sit up, they're able to reach out and grab things. They can bring them to their mouth and they can make chewing movements. None of that is possible. At four months, I often hear from parents who say, well, I've started my baby on solid foods. He's four months old and I'm doing baby led weaning. And it's like, that's an impossible sentence. And no full month old that I have ever met can reach out and grab food and get it to his mouth. I have known babies as young as four and a half, be able to grab something if it's pretty much placed in their hand and get it to their face and maybe to their mouth, but they aren't able to bite anything off.

Gill Rapley (23m 34s):

They aren't able to chew it. They aren't able to swallow it. It all falls out of their mouth. So if the baby is getting anything inside them at that stage, it's got to be because the process is at least partly the bed six months is the age when babies are able to do this to be autonomous, to get joy and pleasure out of eating that isn't possible at fourmonths.

Katie Ferraro (23m 54s):

If I may add to the developmental requirements that you mentioned, being able to sit up on their own and to start to learn how to chew and swallow from a nutrition standpoint, we know that breast milk and or formula is sufficient to meet baby's needs up until six months of life. So from a nutritional standpoint, there is no reason to do foods on top of what Gilll mentioned that physiologically, they're not ready to eat foods. It's kind of like there's two check marks against starting foods before six months of age, and yet so many parents feel the pressure to start early. So we're just trying to educate them that it's not necessary. Don't put that pressure on yourself. I always say it's so much more fun and so much safer to feed a baby. Who's truly ready.

Gill Rapley (24m 35s):

Decide when babies are ready to crawl or to walk, they do that by themselves. But what we do is give them the opportunity. So sure we can start giving babies the opportunity to feed themselves from radius as young as we like, but they won't be able to do it until around six months. So there's no reason why we can't have them up to the table while they're eating to get used to the sounds and the smells of food that, you know, and think part of the conversation. That's great, but until they're able to sit up and reach out and grab for themselves, they won't be able to actually eat the food. And that is absolutely fine because breast milk or formula can meet all their needs. It's like nature's already had it sorted out. And we've been trying to meddle with it for way too many years.

Gill Rapley (25m 16s):

If we would just sit back and give babies the opportunity, they will show us what they can do. There's adults talked about babies being ready for solid foods. And, and we've talked in the past about signs of readiness, but the alternate sign of readiness is when they do it and when they do it and then it takes off from that.

Katie Ferraro (25m 33s):

I wanted to ask you about another variant to Baby led Weaning that we hear mentioned in social media, sometimes parenting circles adapted baby led weaning. We actually just had Jill Rabin on the podcast two episodes ago. I was wondering if maybe you could share a little bit about the work that you Gill Rapley and Jill Rabin are doing in adapted baby led weaning, and what that term means to you.

Gill Rapley (25m 56s):

A few years ago, Jill Rabin got in touch with me and she was really excited because she, she knew about Baby led Weaning. She'd seen it work brilliantly with typically developing babies, but I love the fact. I think all her work is with babies who have feeding challenges either because their development is atypical neurodiverse history, or perhaps anatomically, they have challenges. And she just felt that this approach of trusting babies and giving them the autonomy and the control ought to be able to be adapted for her clients and basically we'll forward quickly. And she has developed an approach to the introduction of solid foods, to that population that is an adaptive form of Baby led Weaning.

Gill Rapley (26m 44s):

Now, in a way we don't need the term adapted because baby led is going to be led by that particular baby. But I think it's important that we recognize that not all babies are ready to just get up and run with it at six months. And to some people, the approach Baby led Weaning actually means just leaving the baby to their own devices. That's not true, but that's the perception some people have. So they naturally been worried, well, how can that work with a baby who doesn't have the skills that a typically developing baby would have it around six months? And sure enough, many of those babies do need some extra support in order to be able to feed themselves.

Gill Rapley (27m 24s):

But that's the clue it's about what those babies can do, not what they can't do. And too often, babies who have challenges like that are just written off as, oh, well obviously he can't feed himself. I'll have to feed him and they don't get given the opportunity to do what they can for themselves with just a little bit of scaffolding and support for the bits that they can't do. And that's what adaptive baby led weaning. It's all about. It's providing that extra scaffolding for babies who need it in order to allow them to do the maximum that they can for themselves. And to bridge that gap, do that mental gap or anatomical bat, whatever it is to get that baby from where the majority of the babies would be at six months to where he needs to be, which will be a few months later.

Katie Ferraro (28m 10s):

I think the work that Jill Rabin is doing is so important because of the population that she's working with. A lot of babies that have down syndrome is the majority of her population, but many other babies, as you described with feeding challenges, because too often, when you look at, you know, any written guides about baby led, weaning not written by Gill Rapley will say, and here's the list of babies who can't do baby led weaning, and it lists all of these diagnoses or some of the conditions that Jill Rabin has developed an approach that shows Baby led Weaning works. But as you mentioned, there are some adaptations. And in many cases, it's about when to start solid foods that developmentally some of these children need to wait a little bit longer. So they might not be ready quite right at six months of age, but they certainly, in many cases, as she's proving, they do develop the skillset to be able to feed themselves.

Katie Ferraro (28m 56s):

They don't need it to be done to them. So the same principles of Baby led Weaning apply.

Gill Rapley (29m 1s):

It's very exciting what she's doing and we're working together now on a book, which will we hope describe this approach really clearly for parents and professionals so that they can follow it with confidence.

Katie Ferraro (29m 13s):

And I think what's also important as Jill Rabin, as a feeding therapist is in a position to be teaching other feeding therapists and in particular speech language pathologist, because particularly in this country, the last generation of SLPs comes from a belief structure of, oh no, we don't do Baby led Weaning. It's not safe. So not only are we proving through the research that it's safe, it's nutritionally effective. These children do not have growth faltering. They are not at higher risk of choking, but it's also applicable to babies of different abilities, to babies of different backgrounds of different capabilities. And I think it's so important because seeing really is believing with Baby led Weaning, right? Like you can read about it, which is wonderful. But when you see a baby with down syndrome at eight months of age, developing the muscle strength over time to feed themselves, it's really inspiring.

Katie Ferraro (29m 57s):

How could there possibly be a list that says, oh, those babies can't do baby led weaning. I'm watching it happen right now.

Gill Rapley (30m 2s):

And it comes back to that whole thing about, you know, having feeding done to you, that is so disempowering. And another thing that I'm excited about and intrigued about which, because Jill's area of work is so very different from mine. And yet they coincide on this business of Baby led Weaning, but is to discover from her how much allowing the baby to feed themselves does much more for their general development than I would have imagined. So encouraging that core strength when they're sitting up, looking down, leaning forward, reaching and grabbing all those things, which they just wouldn't have to do if they were being spoonfed, when all they need to do is sit back and open their mouth. So they're engaging whole different muscle groups on developing additional skills way beyond the whole eating business.

Gill Rapley (30m 49s):

What's really exciting.

Katie Ferraro (30m 51s):

Thank you so much for joining us before we go. Could you just tell our audience, where can they go to learn more about your,

Gill Rapley (30m 56s):

My website is Rapleyweaning.com. Then there are all the bolts that are COVID with Tracey Murkett and the upcoming book with Jill Rabin, which we don't have a definitive title for it yet, but do watch out for it because it's going to be at about and adapted approach to baby led weaning.

Katie Ferraro (31m 15s):

Well, thank you, Jill. It's been a pleasure speaking with

Gill Rapley (31m 17s):

You. Thank you so much, Katie.

Katie Ferraro (31m 20s):

Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Gill Rapley, talking about combination feeding. I just love being able to pick her brain about some of the different definitions that you hear thrown around or the terminology in and around baby led weaning. And I seen people write like pages to describe the difference between baby led feeding and baby led weaning. And Gill Rapley is like, it's basically the same thing. It's just deep who don't want to call it baby led weaning. So I will link to some of the other episodes that we mentioned in this one, because she's been on and we've covered a lot of these topics. So whenever I ask her a question, she's like, you already asked me that it's in a different interview. Okay. So I'll get a link to those interviews with Gill on the show notes for this episode. So if you go to BLW podcast.com/200, you can kind of write out what the questions are and then where they're answered in case you want to hear directly from GIll Rapley's mouth, how she feels about some of these topics around Baby Led Weaning.

Katie Ferraro (32m 10s):

But thanks so much for being here. I'll see you next time.