Whisker (0s):
Today's episode is sponsored by Whisker makers of the Litter Robot, the self-cleaning litter box that helps take one more chore off your family's to-do list. I feel like the mental load of running a household is especially intense this time of year, right? There's school schedules and sports practices, got daycare bags and groceries and meal prep and laundry. And If you have a baby who's eating solid foods, you're also wiping the high chair and wiping the baby and wiping the floor, and then somehow cleaning the baby again. And if you're a cat parent, no matter how busy your day has been, your cat still deserves fresh litter. Honestly, the litter box has always been the thing that made me hesitant about cats. It's not the cat, it's the litter, the scooping, and the smell. Because when you're already managing a busy household and a baby, do you really need another daily chore? That's why Litter Robot by Whisker makes so much sense for busy families. It automatically cycles after every use. So you can check daily litter scooping off of your to-do list. Literate robot handles the dirty work, which means less time and mental energy that you spend thinking about litter box maintenance and cleanup. And the Whisker app can notify you about your unit, including completed clean cycles, litter and drawer levels. And when your litter robot needs attention, you can also track its daily usage. You can get the stats, you can get weight information, and you get all of this without having to check in every day. I love anything that takes a repetitive household chair wear and basically handles it in the background for me. So whether you've got one cat or five cats, whisker has a litter robot for different family sizes, plus bundles that make it really easy to get fully set up while saving money. Learn more about whisker litter robot models and starter kits today. Get 10% off a whisker litter robot at whisker.com/weaning. That's 10% off at whisker.com/weaning.

Once Upon a Dance (1m 53s):
This episode is sponsored by Once Upon a Dance. So this time of year, I think a lot of us are looking for gifts and activities that feel meaningful, right? Things that our kids will actually use and enjoy and remember. And I love when a book can do more than just sit on a shelf. So that's the idea behind Once Upon a Dance, these are interactive children's books that turn story time into movement time so your child can listen. Imagine twirl leap and move through the story making reading, feel active, playful, and connected. Once Upon a Dance was created by a former dance teacher and the stories feature her daughter Ballerina Kay, as a gentle guide and positive role model. And as a mom whose girls all grew up dancing, I really appreciate the bigger lessons that come through movement, confidence, creativity, discipline, perseverance, and self-expression. The stories are whimsical, they're kid friendly, and they have themes like friendship, family, kindness, empathy, self-acceptance practice and perseverance. And with dance along stories featuring unicorns, puppies, cats, bats and more. There's lots of different adventures for kids to enjoy. So whether you have a baby and you're thinking ahead, or you also have a toddler preschooler or an older child at home, once upon a dance, is a wonderful way to bring together books, movement, imagination and connection. Swap screen time for connection. Get your kids off the couch and into a story. Jump twirl and leap over to once upon a dance.com or find once upon a dance books wherever you buy books online that's once upon a dance.com.

Aubrie DeBear (3m 23s):
We're not expecting them to lay down and sleep for 12 hours without hearing a peep out of them. But when babies know how to sleep well, which is a task that they can learn to do, then when they come out of a sleep cycle on their own, they don't need your outside help to get back to sleep.

Katie Ferraro (3m 39s):
Hey there, I'm Katie Ferraro, Registered Dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby led weaning. Here on the baby Led Weaning with Katie Ferraro podcast. I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, giving you the confidence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby Led Weaning. Does your baby need to be sleeping through the night before you start solid foods? And if they're not sleeping through the night, will starting solid foods make them sleep through the night? There is so much information out there about the relationship between food and sleep, like do we do a bigger meal before bedtime?

Katie Ferraro (4m 20s):
And is the nighttime bedtime bottle always the last one to drop? Like also, how in the world are you supposed to figure out your nap and your nighttime sleep schedule when you're also trying to squeeze solid foods in to that already packed schedule? Today we're gonna talk about how sleep and starting solid foods actually fit together. My guest is Dr. Aubrey Debear. Aubrey is a sleep consultant with a doctorate in clinical and forensic psychology And she helps families better understand their baby's sleep needs and establish healthy sleep habits. I actually recorded this interview with Aubrey a while back, but I wanted to bring it back because the message that she has still resonates so much that starting Solid foods and learning to sleep are two really big developmental changes happening right around the same time.

Katie Ferraro (5m 3s):
And food is not some magical solution for getting your baby to sleep through the night. We're gonna talk about what realistic infant sleep looks like, how to think about your baby's sleep schedule when you are starting solid foods, and then she'll kind of bust through some common myths about feeding your baby more food in an attempt to get them to sleep more. And so with no further ado, here is Aubrey Deir.

Aubrie DeBear (5m 27s):
Hi. Thank you for having me. Alright,

Katie Ferraro (5m 29s):
Give us a little background. What do you do as a sleep consultant? How did you get into this line of work?

Aubrie DeBear (5m 35s):
Sure. Well, as a sleep consultant I work with families and parents to help their babies sleep well. I help educate parents on baby ISN sleep needs and what babies are kind of capable of so that we can help the whole family sleep well. And my background before sleep consulting is actually in psychology. I'm a doctor of forensic and clinical psychology, so I've done lots of therapeutic work with families, children, adults. I've actually worked in the prison system, I've, I've seen a lot of stuff in my day and then I became a mom. I have two little ones and my daughter was a a, okay, good enough sleeper. And I started to realize for myself that neither she nor I were our best selves during the day when we weren't really sleeping well.

Aubrie DeBear (6m 19s):
I wasn't the parent that I wanted to be. She was cranky and tired. And so around eight months old, when she was eight months, I learned about sleep training and just sleep consulting in general. And I sleep trained her. It was great. She became an awesome sleeper. She's four years old, she still sleeps great. And for me, the connection between mental health for parents and just children's wellbeing and sleep was just really eyeopening to me.

Katie Ferraro (6m 43s):
I love the messaging that you were not your best self. Like I would say how, what a terrible person I am, if I don't have enough sleep in, my children don't have enough sleep. And it's not like the, it's like two days after they don't sleep enough, there's like a lag. I've noticed, at least with bigger kids, it's not the next day that you suffer, it's two days later. I'm like, why are they being terrible? Oh, two days ago everybody's sleep stuff was off. So it does affect you. And I like that you point out it does affect your mental health if we can't be our best selves.

Aubrie DeBear (7m 7s):
Yeah, yeah. So for me, with my psychology background, it really was impactful. I said, oh, this is more than just I want my baby to sleep because I like sleep. It's, you know, I, we both need sleep to function and to be happy and healthy. And so I really started to look at it from that perspective. And then I went into an actual training program to become a certified sleep consultant and I've been doing it since then. I had my son who is now two years old and so I had a totally different experience with him with just knowing about sleep from the beginning and kind of working on things early on and seeing a total difference than just him always loving his crib and being a great sleeper. So I'd like to help families do that too. Well,

Katie Ferraro (7m 46s):
We're here today to talk about setting your baby's sleep schedule when you're starting solids. But I wanna just before we get into like the food specific stuff and my audience submitted some really great questions related to this, I wanted to ask you what age is most appropriate to begin sleep training? And then how should a mom or dad or caregiver prepare before beginning a sleep schedule? Like set the stage for us If you can.

Aubrie DeBear (8m 8s):
Okay, sure. So there's, you know, basically you don't sleep train before four months. Some people will do it a little bit later. Six months is kind of generally what people tend to agree on. Most pediatricians that I work with will say that four months is an okay time to start, but there's never, it's never too late. You just wouldn't start before four months old. And what you would do before starting is really just kind of look at your environment. Is it promoting sleep? What are some changes we can make to make sure that the environment is ideal? It's cool enough, it's dark enough, it's calming, it's quiet. You wanna get some basic understanding of baby's sleep needs, just education about it. What's a awake window? A awake window is the amount of time that your baby should be awake depending on age and developmental needs.

Aubrie DeBear (8m 50s):
We don't want children to be overstimulated and overly tired because they probably won't sleep so well if that's the case. So knowing about tired cues, early tired cues versus late tired cues. If they're showing you late tired cues, you missed the timing and bedtime's gonna be tough to handle. So knowing about sleep associations, you know, we wanna teach babies how to kind of fall asleep independently over time when it's developmentally appropriate that they can get back to sleep after a natural night, waking in the night. So having this understanding about sleep and understanding routines can help you kind of get prepared to start any kind of sleep schedule.

Katie Ferraro (9m 27s):
It's so interesting, like there's a lot of similarities between sleep consulting and starting solids with infant feeding. Like you know, a lot of doctors will say four to six months, but four months is certainly too early to start solid food. Six months is kind of the sweet spot you're talking about. You know, what's a wake window and what, what should they be able to do developmentally? Like how old is your baby and what feeding milestones should they be able to reach? And then, you know, sleep associations, how to fall asleep independently, that's very similar to, gosh, what's our goal here is to help our babies learn how to eat independently. So we're gonna be working towards that goal, but I would assume it doesn't happen overnight. So about around what age could a parent or caregiver expect their baby to begin to, you know, this mystical, magical sleep through the night thing, which we do that,

Aubrie DeBear (10m 6s):
That's really hard to answer because as we say, all babies are different and sleeping through the night in itself is a misconception. None of us sleep through the night. None of us put our heads to the pillow and sleep and don't wake up until morning. Even adults, we have natural cycles of waking, but we can get back into a sleep cycle easily. You know, you might wake up to use the restroom or get a drink of water just coming out of a sleep cycle. Check your phone. What time is it? The same for babies? We're not expecting them to lay down and sleep for 12 hours without hearing a peep out of them. But when babies know how to sleep well, which is a task that they can learn to do, then when they come out of a sleep cycle on their own, they don't need your outside help to get back to sleep. And so, or need a feeding.

Aubrie DeBear (10m 46s):
So of course newborns need to eat regularly through the night, right? So they're gonna be waking up regularly, but as babies get older, the amount of feeds that they need in the night should decrease and should lessen. And so then also developmentally they're able to go longer stretches. So sleeping through the night can happen as early as two to three months old if they naturally wean their own night feeds. No one's asking you to take those feeds away from your baby in the night. But some babies will just naturally start sleeping longer stretches and parents wake up like, whoa, you wake up last night, what's going on? That's awesome. Some babies are around six months old, you know, after six months if a baby is a healthy weight and there are no medical issues, if they're still waking for feeds in the night, it's probably more of a sleep association.

Aubrie DeBear (11m 29s):
And so we wanna kind of look at what the baby's actually needing during those wakings.

Katie Ferraro (11m 33s):
Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back.

Freestyle (11m 39s):
This episode is sponsored by freestyle. You guys, at one point in my life I had six babies in diapers at the same time. So I had quadruplets and then a set of twins. So trust me when I say I know a thing or two about changing diapers, I was a pro. And when you're changing a ton of diapers, you want something that's going to keep your baby dry and comfortable, but I know you also don't want to spend a fortune and that's why I'm excited to introduce you to freestyle. Freestyle makes premium diapers that are designed to be super absorbent and ultra soft. They're fragrance free. EWG are verified and they're made without over 1500 different chemicals of concern. And one of my favorite things about freestyle is that you can have a whole month's worth of diapers delivered right to your door. How convenient, right? Because the last thing a busy mom needs is another trip to the store for diapers. Right now freestyle is offering my listeners 30% off their first three months of a diaper subscription. Seriously, check this out. Just head to freestyle world slash weaning and use code weaning to get your first three months for just $49 a month. Again, that's freestyle do world slash weaning code weaning.

Katie Ferraro (12m 57s):
What about breastfeeding moms? Because of course their feeding cycle is gonna be a little bit different than if you're on a set bottle feed for moms who are still breastfeeding as they move into the six month mark when they're gonna be starting solid foods. How should they manage those night feedings while they're trying to do sleep training and then also stressing about solid foods in the daytime? Any tips for the breastfeeding moms?

Aubrie DeBear (13m 16s):
Well, so there's I think, a misconception that bottle fed or formula fed babies are gonna sleep longer and better than breastfed babies. I've worked with plenty of breastfeeding moms whose babies do sleep well and wean their own night feeds. So however, if your baby's hungry, feed them, of course in the night, if your baby's waking for a feed, you can still feed them even If you sleep training. Sleep training does not mean removing comfort, removing feedings. It does mean if your baby is not hungry, you don't need to respond with a feed just because they wake in the night. So that's part of what sleep training is about, is understanding your baby's actual needs and cues. I always say you should check with your pediatrician and if your pediatrician says, this baby is healthy, there's no need for those night feed these night wakings are related to something else, then let's work on weening night feeds.

Aubrie DeBear (14m 1s):
But if your baby is breastfeeding and your baby is hungry, you should feed your baby in the night.

Katie Ferraro (14m 7s):
Certainly. And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to infer that formula or bottle fed babies would be more full. That wasn't my intention. But from a scheduling standpoint, I think parents are like, I feed it this time, this time and this time. Whereas in breastfeeding you're like, nah, I don't, you ask mom what your schedule like, I don't really know all the times it's a little bit more, I think, leeway with the schedule. That was what I, I didn't wanna perpetuate any myths 'cause that was actually my next question is, you know, there's these myths out there like offering your baby solid foods or starting solids earlier, putting rice cereal in the bottle, it's gonna help your baby sleep through the night and parents will give anything to get a good night's sleep, especially a few months into this parenting thing. Is that true or could you help us dispel some of the myths related to starting solids and sleeping through the night?

Aubrie DeBear (14m 47s):
Sure, of course. Well, so starting solids should happen when a baby is developmentally ready and that's also when it's age appropriate. So I refer to you the expert on that, on when that should actually happen. But I think that the misconception for a lot of parents is that when babies are at the age of starting solids, they are also just older babies, right? And so older babies, yes,

Katie Ferraro (15m 7s):
Can do more things longer,

Aubrie DeBear (15m 9s):
Not

Katie Ferraro (15m 10s):
They can feed themselves food If you wait till they're ready, you know?

Aubrie DeBear (15m 13s):
Right, exactly. So, so this idea that okay, it's the food that is causing this baby to sleep longer, that's just not the case. You know, and you can find research to say all kinds of things, but generally the research says that feeding has nothing to do with sleeping well through the night. Babies who know how to sleep can sleep well through the night. Babies who don't know how to sleep on their own and dunno how to get back to sleep are gonna have a harder time. And as parents we really freak out, right? Like, oh, they're waking up in the night, they must be starving so I'm gonna feed them. If only my baby were eating better before bed, they might sleep longer. And that's just not the case. And so you should start feeding solids when they're developmentally ready, when you have all the information.

Aubrie DeBear (15m 56s):
But also keep in mind that sleeping through the night has nothing to do with the food that they're eating at bedtime or during the day. Here's

Katie Ferraro (16m 2s):
A question from a mom bell. She asked, how long after eating solids long should you wait to put your baby down for a nap or for bedtime? So

Aubrie DeBear (16m 10s):
With solids for Naps, I like to say if you're giving, you know, lunch and it's approaching a nap time, you wanna kind of get them down actually soon after eating the solid food for a nap because otherwise they can get a second wind from eating and they can get more energy and kind of fight that nap. That's different for nursing or bottle feeding. You don't wanna do that right before sleep. However, at bedtime, you know, it's kind of the same for us. How do you feel if you've had a large meal and then lie down to go to sleep? You have, you're probably gonna be uncomfortable so I wouldn't feed and then straight to bed, you know, anything should be, you still wanna have a bedtime routine in between. Eating and dinner can happen at a regular time with the family and then it's time for the routine and to go off to sleep.

Katie Ferraro (16m 51s):
And I would add two things there. For babies that have gerd, it is important that they remain upright after meals for approximately 30 minutes. So especially If you, your baby has been suffering in that regard because we don't want that reflux to worsen if they're in a reclined position. And then also If you guys are introducing allergenic foods for, especially for the first few times, right? And allergic reaction can occur at any exposure, not necessarily on the first, almost rarely at the first time they taste it or try that food. But what we do know is that if a baby ISN gonna have an allergic reaction to food, it's gonna occur within minutes and usually not any longer than up to two hours after. So you know, you do your bedtime, but I advise parents, if you're trying new allergenic foods, you be alert to watch for the potential reaction.

Katie Ferraro (17m 31s):
So it's like we don't wanna put the baby down and you go to bed right away and then maybe the baby has an allergic reaction to tree nut or shellfish. But other than that, for the most part, from a nutrition standpoint, there's no like set time where you need to put a baby down or keep them up for base, you know, for digestives with the exception of GERD and the allergenic foods.

Aubrie DeBear (17m 46s):
Yeah, that's a great point. People ask all the time about reflux and those kinds of things and and so that's important to keep in mind. The baby needs time to sit up.

Katie Ferraro (17m 53s):
Okay. There was another mom who said, my baby was super interested in food when we started, then they did spoonfeeding first, then they switched to baby Led Weaning, baby's 14 months old and still doesn't sleep through the night. Is that typical for an older baby, a toddler at that point, at 14 months?

Aubrie DeBear (18m 7s):
Yeah, so I would say that that's not really typical and there's probably a strong sleep association there. And what a sleep association is, is that baby needs something to put them to sleep. And so that will cause night wakings. 'cause like I said earlier, we all naturally kind of wake in the night, we come to the surface of a sleep cycle and either you know how to fall back to sleep on your own or you cry out because you need help. And so I would imagine that that child has something and it might be feeding to sleep, but feeding to sleep, pacifier, rocking to sleep, you know, mom in bed next to them, whatever it is, there's something that they need and they need you to come back and give that to 'em again in the night. So that is not really related to food or baby Led Weaning or the type of food that they're eating.

Aubrie DeBear (18m 49s):
It's more related to how that baby is falling asleep initially and needing that support to get back to sleep each time they wake.

Katie Ferraro (18m 55s):
Sometimes parents will ask me, oh well should I get my sleep schedule set first before I do solid foods? And I don't really know how to answer that because every baby is different and I'm not a sleep consultant. I would assume that these things are happening currently. Right. If we're starting to do some of the sleep training that you've talked about around six months of age, and that also happens to coincide with the time that we're starting solid foods, like babies don't develop one skill in a bubble, right? They're happening alongside other skills. Would you agree or is it important to do one before the other?

Aubrie DeBear (19m 22s):
Before the other? No. You know, I haven't actually been asked that question before and, and I, I agree with you. I think that everything's happening kind of at the same time and so there's no need to separate and you know, babies who are going longer stretches during the day with their awake time are preparing to eat solids. And so it's just kind of happening around the same time and there's no need to separate that. Like first we get sleep down because sleep is always changing during the day, especially nap times and the lengths are always changing. So I wouldn't wait for that to be set before starting solids.

Katie Ferraro (19m 52s):
Well Aubrey, this has been really eye-opening for me because I, I wasn't even aware of the whole world of sleep consulting when I was a new mom and I think it's such a wonderful resource. Tell our audience a little bit about where they can go to learn more about your work and then also what can we do to help support you in your business?

Aubrie DeBear (20m 8s):
Oh, you're so sweet. Well you can go to at Baby Sleep doctor on Instagram and I also have baby sleep doctor.com is my website. I have tons of free information on my Instagram. I have regular posts and reels with all of this kind of basic information. I also have free sleep tips that you can download for babies up to three years old, which is really helpful. So you can learn again about these wake windows and what are tired cues and what I should be doing as far as props. I also have digital sleep guides based on age. So one thing that I would say that was really helpful to me with having my second child was understanding about baby ISN sleep, even with a newborn. So you can't sleep train until four to six months or later, but you can certainly be practicing healthy sleep skills even with your little one, you know, and being able to understand their their cue.

Aubrie DeBear (20m 57s):
So we have these little babies who might naturally wean their night feed on their own and without you having to worry should I be taking away a feed in the night or actually having to sleep train. I didn't have to sleep train my son because we just worked on healthy habits and and helpful skills early on. So I have a newborn sleep guide for babies up to four months old. I have a sleep training, sleep guide for babies over four months old. And they also do actual calls and custom sleep plans myself with clients who are interested. So those are some of my offerings.

Katie Ferraro (21m 23s):
And you have two kids and you were so honest with your time to come on the podcast like it's a lot. And I just wanna clarify that your handle at baby sleep, Dr. For doctor, right? And same thing with the website?

Aubrie DeBear (21m 32s):
Yes. Thank you for clarifying. Yes. Okay,

Katie Ferraro (21m 34s):
Perfect. And I will link up all of your resources in the show notes for this episode If you guys go to blw podcast.com. Well, Aubrey, thank you again so much for sharing your time and your information. This has been so helpful. I think a lot of parents stress about solids, they stress about sleep. You've really helped to clarify some of, especially the misconceptions 'cause there's a lot of similarities that our world's there. Yes. Like a lot of people think a lot of things about food that aren't true. So anything in closing that we should know? Like just myths that you might hear from like, you know, an older mom on your block or your mother-in-law or your aunt and they're like pressuring you to do stuff about food to get your baby to sleep. Like any words of wisdom you can leave us with here at the end?

Aubrie DeBear (22m 10s):
Yes, I would say that any kind of this, you know, rice cereal in a bottle is dangerous. It's not helpful. So that doesn't work for sleep. I would say any kind of specific foods at bedtime to make sure they have a really full tummy isn't gonna help. If your baby knows how to sleep, they're going to start to sleep well if they don't know how to sleep. It's just not food related. Food isn't going to be the thing that fixes it. So keep that in mind that focusing on sleep skills is the way to get your baby to sleep. Thank

Katie Ferraro (22m 37s):
You so much.

Aubrie DeBear (22m 37s):
Thank you for having me.

Katie Ferraro (22m 40s):
Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Dr. Aubrie DeBear. I know personally, I learned a few things about infant sleep. I really did not know. That's why I love having other experts from different areas on the show, especially when they intersect with feeding. I'll put everything that Dr. Debear mentioned on the show notes page for this episode, which you can find@blwpodcast.com/146. A special thank you to our partners at AirWave Media. If you like podcasts that feature food and science and using your brain, check out some of the podcasts from AirWave Media or online@blwpodcast.com. Thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next time.

KiwiCo (23m 21s):
This episode is sponsored by Kiwi Co. So one of my favorite things about Christmas morning is like every parent, right? Watching your kids open their presents. But you know what's even better when they get a gift that they're still playing with weeks later in our house, we have seven kids, so trust me, I've seen a lot of toys that get opened and played with for five minutes and then they're completely forgotten about. But that's why I'm such a fan of Kiwi Co for holiday gifts. So my daughter recently built a working pinball machine with her Kiwi co tinker crate, and watching her figure out how all the pieces fit together was so much fun. She had to work through the springs and the levers and the tension, and then when she finally got it working, she was so proud of herself. And the best part, she didn't just build it and move on, she kept playing with it. That's what I love about Kiwi Co. These are not just toys that kids open. They're hands on projects that teach children how things work while they're having fun. And there's something for everyone. The Panda crate is designed for babies from birth to three years. And for older kids, there are crates that are focused on science, engineering, art, and more. So If you are looking for a holiday gift that's screen free, educational and actually fun, Kiwi Co is such a great option. Unwrap fun this holiday with Kiwi Co. Get 50% off your first crate@kiwico.com promo code weaning. That's up to 50% off your first crate at KIW ico.com. Promo code weaning.