Whitney English (0s):

Anytime you incorporate more plants in the diet, it's going to have beneficial health outcomes. So it's not a black and white thing where you're either eating only plants or you're not.

Alexandra Caspero (9s):

These are all foods that are already part of any diet. For the most part, it's just putting more of an emphasis on them.

Katie Ferraro (15s):

Hey, there I'm Katie Ferraro, Registered Dietitian college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby Led Weaning. Here on the baby Led Weaning Made Easy podcast, I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leaving you with a confidence and knowledge. You need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using baby Led Weaning. Well, Hey guys, welcome back. This episode is for the plant people and in particular vegan families. And how do they introduce potentially allergenic foods, right? Because if you look at the big eight allergenic foods, those are the eight foods that account for about 90% of food allergy, four of the big eight are animal foods, right?

Katie Ferraro (1m 1s):

Milk, egg, fish, and shellfish. So what do vegan families do? If we seem to think that early introduction of the potentially allergenic foods will help prevent food allergy down the road, how can vegan families do it if they don't eat these animal foods? I have no idea because I'm not vegan. So I called in the plant based experts in nutrition today, I am being joined by the plant based juniors.

3 (1m 23s):

Dietitians is Alexandra Caspero and Whitney English. There are two registered dietitians and moms collectively known on social media as plant based juniors and Alex and Whitney are going to be walking us through different ways that the plant-based families in their community have tackled this issue of introducing allergenic foods. They're also going to throw in some additional info about how plant-based families can ensure that their babies are getting important nutrients like iron. And how do we maximize that iron absorption? These are the plant-based experts. I hope you guys enjoy this interview with Alex and Whitney from plant-based juniors.

Katie Ferraro (1m 59s):

All right. Well hello, Alex and Whitney. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

Alexandra Caspero and Whitney English (2m 3s):

Thank you for having us, Katie.

Katie Ferraro (2m 5s):

This is the first time I've interviewed two people at the same time and like I'm a good at being a dietitian. I'm not so great at the tech stuff. So I hope we can all hear each other, but if you guys don't mind, could you introduce yourself and tell us how is it that you came to be working together and known as plant-based juniors?

Alexandra Caspero (2m 20s):

I can go first. This is Alex. So Whitney and I have actually been friends for quite a few years. We met at a blogging conference and we were not mothers then. And then, you know, fast forward, I think like, gosh, like eight, seven or eight years, we were both pregnant around the same time, both sort of eating these predominantly plant-based diets and started reaching out to each other and sort of saying things like, Hey, what do you think about this? Or what's your thought with, with that study? And just kind of realized, you know, we were having a lot of questions and trying to really dive into the science behind feeding kids plant-based or predominantly plant-based and realized we have all of these questions and I'm sure other parents due to, and that's really the Genesis of why plant-based Junior's came to be.

Whitney English (3m 4s):

And they're just really, Wasn't a good resource for plant-based parents out there. What was available was a lot of influencers who were sharing their anecdotal experience or some really obscure texts that were a little bit outdated from other dietitians, but there was nothing accessible for like the modern day mom or dad raising plant-based kids.

Alexandra Caspero (3m 25s):

The information was sort of either like, you know, you're, you're great. Don't worry about anything. Plants will take care of themselves or you can't do this. And we were like, okay, this is not the information that's sort of correct. There is a middle path and we need to comp would be evidence-based sort of solutions for parents who are like, well, I want to do this, or I believe in this, but I also want to make sure that I'm doing it the way that is nutritionally best for my child.

Whitney English (3m 49s):

And actually one area, especially that was of concern was Baby Led Weaning. So Alex started baby LED WEANING first with her son Vander. And she was seen in a lot of chat rooms. And between other moms seeing that you absolutely can't do Baby Led Weaning if you were doing a plant-based diet.

Katie Ferraro (4m 4s):

Why is that? Like, what were they saying? Like I'm obsessed with like misinformation and Baby Led Weaning

Alexandra Caspero (4m 9s):

Well then, you know, all the, all the groups. So, so I think the big thing was iron, you know, and a lot of it was like, and look, we're not going to miss, you know, misquote the need for iron, like iron is really important.

Katie Ferraro (4m 22s):

Yeah. But we're not also going to say you have to eat animal foods in order to get iron.

Alexandra Caspero (4m 26s):

Yes. Okay. And that was really the message, right? It was like, if you want to meet these 11 milligrams in this sort of, you know, period of time, not eating meat is you're just not going be able to do it. And that was sort of the message. And honestly, I remember doubting myself so much. I reached out to Whitney and was like, gosh, I love this idea of baby LED WEANING. I had heard about, even before I became a mother and knew it sort of aligned with a lot of how I believed in feeding children. And then it was like, oh, I'm going to show them I can do this. So that might be,

Whitney English (4m 53s):

I think the last time we saw each other, we were talking about and a specific issue with the iron and how it's really hard to meet irony regardless

Katie Ferraro (5m 3s):

Regardless of exactly. And then also we're pro like people, I mean, we're dietitians, but like, they were like stressing over like what percent is absorbed? And like, I think we need to like back up and remember like Baby Led Weaning is about teaching babies to learn how to eat, not like micromanaging the micronutrients, which again, I'm, I'm not disparaging iron it's super important, but like I've literally had dietitian, moms being like, so I'm measuring the amount of egg yolk that they're eating and then I'm subtracting the percent because I think that the tannins in the tea I'm drinking is offsetting and like two, you need to chill. Like your baby doesn't even know how to eat yet. And breast milk. And our formula is still providing most of the nutrition, including iron. It's not like we just flip a switch at the six month mark. Right,

Whitney English (5m 41s):

Right.

Alexandra Caspero (5m 41s):

Yes, exactly. And for the record, we are not those parents. I do not measure or subtract.

Katie Ferraro (5m 45s):

I know you're not, I met you guys. Actually. I met you guys at a plant-based conference where I felt like a fish out of water because I do eat. And with, with those like, oh my gosh, do they know that I actually eat animal food? Like the people that and organized the conference. And then when I met you guys, like, I know you had just kind of started, you'd formed plant-based juniors, Alex. I knew you from nutrition before, but Whitney, I had never met you before because you had a different career path for it. And I'm sorry that I was like, Alex was telling me a little bit about what you used to do and your previous job. What did you do Whitney before nutrition and why'd you end up getting into nutrition?

Whitney English (6m 17s):

Yes. So It sounds like a stark contrast. When I talk about it, my Genesis was as an entertainment reporter. So I got my undergraduate degree in broadcast journalism. I moved out to Los Angeles shortly after school and worked for E news and another women's lifestyle website. And it was my job to interview celebrities. And it was a really fun job. It was a great in my early twenties, but I was always personally passionate about nutrition and fitness. And I was always trying to kind of steer our, my conversations with celebrities in that direction. And it was in doing so that I learned how much misinformation is really out there about nutrition. And the journalist in me was like, I got to get to the bottom of this. Like somebody is wrong because everybody's saying different things.

Whitney English (6m 58s):

And that was when I decided to go back to school to be a dietitian, had kids and started being more interested specifically in pediatric nutrition. And that's how Alex and I came together, but I kind of brought it full circle because now I'm taking my background in communications and my knowledge about nutrition and helping with Alex to really spread the message to everyone, to try to kind of combat all of that, all of this misinformation, all of this noise and the nutrition space

Katie Ferraro (7m 26s):

And so for you guys, I know you market and you speak about being predominantly plant-based and I know one of the things that's so hard, people ask questions about vegetarianism. I always refer them to you cause I'm like, I don't know how to answer that. And here are two registered dietitians, living this lifestyle, raising children, thriving children, but also really focused on the research behind the recommendations that they make as all dietitians are and should be. But what does that term predominantly plant-based mean? Cause I know there's so many different ways to like quote unquote define vegetarianism.

Whitney English (7m 56s):

So we kind of coined predominantly plant-based to mean whatever it means to you individually. It means getting more plants on the plate. So that may differ in your overall diet that may differ from day to day, Alex and I both eat some animal products on occasion. There are certain animal foods that we don't eat at all. We just consider ourselves mostly plant-based most of the time. And the goal in perpetuating that message is really to get everyone to start moving to a more plant-based diet. Because one, the research shows that all forms of plant-based eating, whether you're vegan, vegetarian, flexitarian, pescatarian, whatever it is, anytime you incorporate more plants in the diet, it's going to have beneficial health outcomes.

Whitney English (8m 38s):

So it's not a black and white thing where you're either eating only plants or you're not, you can reap health benefits. The more plants we get on the plate. And in addition, that's what we know about what's going to help solve our climate crisis is really, if we get the whole population eating a little bit less meat, reducing their intake, versus trying to just get a select group of people to completely eliminate it, animal products. So we're all inclusive, Alex and I just want to get more plants on the plate. That's our goal. We're trying to reach all parents.

Alexandra Caspero (9m 9s):

You know, Alex, you were talking about like when you started Baby Led Weaning with your first child and then you were like having, and I appreciate you sharing, like even like some self doubt, like, oh my gosh, maybe I do like need two hours. And I'm curious if you ever did modify your diet to include animal foods because of maybe like a diagnosed nutrient deficiency or you just were craving a certain food and is it okay to change what foods you decide to eat and not eat if you are predominantly plant-based? Yeah. I think the reason that Whitney and I hooked so much into this idea of a predominantly plant-based is to me well, so I will sort of preface this by saying too. I think that veganism is really more of an ethical stance, more so than just like a diet, which is why we prefer to use the term and be like strict plant-based because to me, you know, of veganism is, is much more about different ethics sets that necessarily dietary, you know, nutrition.

Alexandra Caspero (9m 57s):

I think it is totally okay to do whatever you want to do. I think that labels sometimes are hindering and they make people feel like you have to do this. And if you, if you crave something or eat something different than now, you're not this. And then that just sort of messes up with your identity. And so we try to say like, look, predominantly plant-based is it's a label, but it's not. It really is sort of this like fluid approach to eating just more plants personally. I do occasionally eat things like eggs and cheese. I never incorporated meat. I haven't eaten meat in gosh, over 15 years now I did have a very strong craving for cheeseburgers when I was pregnant with my son. But thankfully I was eating, you know, the, the different kinds of veggie burgers out there. And that was fine, but I don't shame or judge anyone if they feel like this is a craving that I have, or I want to introduce a little bit of, of animal products.

Alexandra Caspero (10m 43s):

And I mean, I think again, it's, it's a very personal decision. And I think that, you know, sort of like Whitney said, we know the shift needs to be all of us eating more plants. I think that it is a difficult task or, and not really a task that is achievable for everyone to say, look, you need to be a hundred percent or you're not in that to me feels just like it's, that's not going to work with a lot of people, but I think that the message of more plants, it's just much more approachable and it's also much more empathetic, you know

Katie Ferraro (11m 9s):

And there's nothing wrong with it. Like there's no data that's like eating more plants is going to be bad for you for X. Like it. I just think

Whitney English (11m 16s):

One thing, no matter what diet you follow that everyone can agree on, is that more specifically for, into vegetables, let's say more fruits and vegetables is better, like no diet disagrees with that.

Alexandra Caspero (11m 26s):

And I think the one thing that we're really passionate about is we also know that early introduction of these foods is also what sets of kids for these pallets for life. You know, what we're eating, how we're eating, especially in this, these formative years of, you know, early infants or later infancy and early toddlerhood. I mean, gosh, that makes a huge difference in how these kids are going to eat in their teen years of going into adulthood. So our sort of messages, you know, the more that you introduce these items, the more they become commonplace far as like family foods, the more accepting they are. And so hopefully as these kids transition into adulthood and start to choose their own foods for their own families, it's not this like weird abrupt shift. It's just like, oh yeah, we ate a lot of these plant rich foods growing up.

Alexandra Caspero (12m 8s):

I'm going to continue to do that. And then of course, gosh, what is that going to mean? Not only for their personal health, but also planetary health as well.

Katie Ferraro (12m 15s):

And the particular reason I wanted to have you guys on the podcast today is because I get questions from parents all the time about different variations of vegetarianism. And I always say, listen, my family does eat animal products, and I always recommend your services and your guys's expertise in plant-based lifestyles. But for vegan family, sometimes there's like a little bit of a conundrum because when we look at the data about introducing the allergenic foods, again, for some of them, there is a little bit of gray area, there appears to be absolutely no benefit to delaying the introduction of these foods. And so across the board of recommending, Hey, for the big eight allergenic foods, it looks like introducing them early and often can help prevent against food allergy down the road, which is great, good data for peanut, Whitney, you're gonna talk a little about the research behind the other ones, but to be honest, four of the big eight allergenic foods are animal foods.

Katie Ferraro (13m 4s):

So I'm just always curious and there's no right or wrong answer, of course. Like what do you guys recommend to vegan families who are on the fence about like, how do I introduce those four of the big eight if we don't eat animal food?

Whitney English (13m 16s):

Yeah. Introducing allergens in general is just a very confusing gray area topic. As you know, you know, we only have hard data for some of the allergens. We only have recommendations specifically for peanuts. And then you've got that issue of, well, we don't really want to start baby led weaning until six months, but now we need to be introducing eight different foods between four to six months. Like how do we do that? There's just, there's so much that needs to be further researched and more established guidelines and recommendations so that parents actually know what to do. But what we recommend is, again, like what we were just saying, it's a very individual case by case basis, whatever you choose is going to be is going to be right for your family and depends on your family.

Whitney English (14m 5s):

Because first of all, of the eight allergens, like I just said, the peanuts are the only ones that we have established introduction guidelines for, and really recommendations for how much to introduce and how often, because for the rest of them, there's no guidelines. So it's kind of like, you can look at the trends and say, oh, it looks like kids who eat fish. And the first 12 months tend to have a lower risk of allergenic diseases in general, not necessarily food allergies, that's what the research shows. But we don't know like when, before 12 months we don't know how much fish, we don't know. There's no direct connection with a food allergy. So there's that kind of leaves parents a little bit empty handed.

Whitney English (14m 45s):

And for vegan parents, I wouldn't say that that is strong enough evidence that I would introduce fish as a vegan parent. So I'm not a vegan parent. So I did introduce fish to my son, but it brings up a lot of questions. One is yes, whether or not you're willing to provide that food and knowing that you're going to have to provide that food twice a week for probably about six months or so. And then secondly, probably taking into account your child's risk of allergy. So at least for peanuts, they break down the three groups into infants who are, are, have severe eczema and, or an egg allergy is the first group. And those are the children that they recommend introduce with peanuts from four to six months.

Whitney English (15m 26s):

The second group is kids with mild to moderate allergy and they recommend introducing peanuts around six months. And then for all other children, any time, basically six months on that's the standard recommendation. So taking that into account, you could kind of translate that to the other allergens if you want it to follow that lead and say, well, maybe because is that a severe risk of eczema? So I guess I will introduce eggs, whereas maybe another vegan family that feels very strongly about not introducing allergens has no family history of allergies has no eczema, they may feel less of a need to do so.

Katie Ferraro (16m 3s):

And there are some vegan families I know that are like, because as Alex mentioned like a lot, you know, the prime reason people are strictly adhering to a vegan diet tends to be ethical reasons that they'll say, okay, listen, I'm willing to bend the rules for X, Y, or Z. Again, each family is different. Some families are no like we're none of those foods all of the time. And I'm with you guys in the sense that I know like a very well-planned vegan or vegetarian diet can meet all of your child's needs. And we can get that from food alone, with a few exceptions, which I know you guys have awesome information about when certain supplements are indicated. And I just encourage all listeners. If you're getting information about dietary supplements should be coming from credentialed professionals like registered dietitians and only in light of like diagnosed nutrient deficiencies.

Katie Ferraro (16m 48s):

There's so many parents out there just like wanting to throw all of these supplements at their kids. And so I always say, go ask Alex and Whitney about Z, just eat meat to get zinc. So I don't know what you would do if you don't.

Whitney English (16m 59s):

So we have a three supplement guide to a free supplement guide that people can download either on our website or at the link on our Instagram channel, every nutrient one by one.

Katie Ferraro (17m 10s):

Cool. And I'll link to all of their resources, including the free supplement guide on the show notes for this episode at blwpodcasts.com

Whitney English (17m 18s):

Yeah, you bring up an interesting point is that even if you do choose to raise your child strictly vegan, this may be one area where you decide you're going to set your ethical concerns aside in order to potentially reap the reduced allergen benefits.

Katie Ferraro (17m 35s):

Again, the data is it's emerging. It's a gray air appearance gets so frustrated when you tell them you need to introduce the allergenic foods early and often, like, what does that mean exactly how much I need you to know that if I told you a specific answer, I would be lying because there is no data to support X number of grams, Y number of times a and even with peanut that's suggestion from the leap trial just happens to be the number of grams of peanuts. They fed at a specified time over the course of the study, because that's what the study protocol outlined. And there's nothing to say that more or less peanut, more or less frequently would of been more or less protective. And so I think parents sometimes get so hung up on the numbers that, you know, we always encourage them step back. Let's look at the big picture. Why are we doing this to teach our babies, to learn how to eat, to expose our babies to different foods and flavors to potentially prevent or reduce risk of food allergy, but nothing is surefire

Alexandra Caspero (18m 23s):

That's right. I think one thing that we, you know, we hear a lot of time from, from our vegan families is like, well, I don't plan on them ever eating these foods. So why do I need to introduce it? And I think that the one thing where we sort of say, look, and we know that there's mixed evidence for eggs, but considering the risk of cross-contamination and, and dairy two of those tend to be the ones that are just so commonly cross-contaminated in various packaging facilities. Those are the ones that just

Whitney English (18m 49s):

Eating foods that your kids going to eat at a birthday and just being exposed

Alexandra Caspero (18m 56s):

Yeah, those are the ones, especially if you have a higher family risk or if your baby is showing, like Whitney said, you know, has eczema, which we know is going to lead to higher potential risk of introducing. If you are having a food allergy, those are things you may want to consider. So even if you don't personally feel like these are foods, your kids are going to eat, and we know a lot of vegan parents feel that way. There is the risk of cross-contamination. And just also the idea two that, you know, your, your child may have a different philosophy on what their diet looks like as they become older. So we're very much like, look, you've got to consider family history, you've got to consider the individual baby also what you're willing to do, because like you said, you know, a family might be like, okay, yeah, I can introduce eggs. You know, I could do that in, you know, a couple of times a week, but there's no way they're going to introduce fish.

Alexandra Caspero (19m 39s):

And we respect that. You know, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. If you decide, you just want to introduce one or two that's okay, too. And so we, we really want to empower parents to say like, look, here's the research that we know, but you've also gotta be willing to do it because we also think that, you know, based on what we know about peanuts and a little bit about eggs, one time isn't going to do it. So if you're going to do it, you probably should, you know, commit at least sort of how we know early and often whatever that means, but it's not going to be like a one-off. And so that's something that you're also going to need to take into consideration with how you're willing to introduce these foods.

Katie Ferraro (20m 11s):

And so while I have you guys here, I have to ask what everyone always wants to know about iron for families that are not going to be eating. I don't want to say across the board all animals and cause a lot of families are vegetarian, but oh wait, egg yolks like Egg yolks of iron sweet. I'm like, yeah, okay. They're like, if you do eat eggs, that's a great one. But like plant-based foods, vegetarian family that baby's not eating eggs. What do you guys suggest as far as where to get iron from in the diet?

Whitney English (20m 35s):

Yeah. So we actually did a graphic on this last week and the amount of iron by weight and by serving size actually almost every bean and red meat is actually the same. So the issue is with the bioavailability, we that the iron called non-heme iron that's found in plants is absorbed at a much lower rate than the iron called heme iron that's found in red meat. But this can be easily overcome by the addition of vitamin C. So if you serve some strawberries, some bell pepper, some citrus and lemon, some lime or vitamin C rich produce with your iron stores and increases the bioavailability two by about three to six times, which brings it up to the same absorption level as me.

Whitney English (21m 19s):

So it takes a tiny bit of thoughtfulness. I think once you know that vitamin C trick, there you go. But serving those iron rich foods with the source of vitamin C will make providing iron just as easily for you, just as easy for a plant-based family as it is for. Yeah. And

Katie Ferraro (21m 33s):

And you don't have to do that on the meal level basis. Right. Where you're like, oh, we're having Pinto beans. I need to also make sure there's tomatoes. Like it's only two days and weeks and months. Is it it's at the meal?

Alexandra Caspero (21m 44s):

It is at the meal, yeah

Katie Ferraro (21m 47s):

Okay.

Whitney English (21m 47s):

Just for actually helping with the absorption in that digestive process right there

Katie Ferraro (21m 50s):

Right there. Okay. Well that particular food.

Alexandra Caspero (21m 52s):

Well, and I was gonna say two, I mean, look, this was my fear. I mean, like we sort of said earlier, I remember being like, well, I don't think I'm going to get my baby red meat, but I need to figure out some way they can hand hold these iron rich foods. I remember with beans, I was so stressed, you know, as a new mom and like trying to get into baby led weaning to be like, well, I can't give them just beans on a plate. I've got to figure out a way that my six month old can palm grasp those foods. And so we made a lot of lentil meatballs sort of, and in log shapes, we have a ton of recipes for things that are like handheld chickpea muffins, you know, things where it's not only going to be iron rich, but also age appropriate because we also know that, you know, just giving your baby a chick B at six months, isn't going to work with

Katie Ferraro (22m 33s):

I know I love it. And to be like, it's a great first food. I'm like, well, it's not because they can't pick it up.

Whitney English (22m 42s):

In our book, we actually have a whole chart. That's breaking down iron vitamin C and also fat because we want to make sure babies are getting that. And we have a million different pairings. And like Alex said, all of our iron rich recipes then naturally incorporate of vitamin C source so that it kind of takes the guesswork out of it.

Katie Ferraro (22m 59s):

It's just another reason to feed your baby more plants. Cause they all have

Alexandra Caspero (23m 3s):

We do though recommend at most meals and snacks that iron rich food, just because it is so important, you know, because of the bioavailability. And just the idea that even if you're eating an omnivore, a diet, you know, you need to be focusing on iron. So we have a PB three plate, which is sort of our cute little graphic where it's sort of like, you know, here are the, here are the food groups that we consider to be essential for toddlers and infants and even older children as well. And iron is a really big part of that. So just really encouraging parents, different ways to two eat these iron rich foods. And again, baby's going to enjoy get that

Whitney English (23m 33s):

You can get that on our website two. And we actually, I have it right on the fridge so that every time I pull out something for my son, whether it be beans, then I kind of look at the plate. I'm like, all right, what else do I need to hit to make this a complete meal? And just again, trying to just take that, that guesswork and the confusion out of meal planning.

Katie Ferraro (23m 53s):

How do you guys feel about tofu for babies as a source of iron?

Whitney English (23m 56s):

We love it.

Katie Ferraro (23m 56s):

Okay, good. I love it too. I just want to ask of you love it.

Whitney English (24m 1s):

I love tofu in general, as a source of iron as a source of plant based protein, a little bit of fat in there, and tofu is just really palatable for kids because it has that neutral taste. Most babies will accept it. And then it's also really easy to slice into

Katie Ferraro (24m 17s):

Super affordable

Whitney English (24m 18s):

And it's affordable. I mean, just the benefits go on and on. We have an awesome tool from the Marinare recipe. It's another one that like parents will love and it doesn't have to feel like you're creating two separate meals. Like I think that was one of my son's first, first favorite meals was our tofu Marinare strips.

Katie Ferraro (24m 34s):

So Whitney, you mentioned your book earlier and I was wonder if you guys could tell me more about the book that you guys have recently published?

Alexandra Caspero (24m 42s):

Yeah. So this is called, it's called the plant-based baby and toddler, and it really is sort of everything that we were looking for all those years ago. You know, it was the book that I was searching for when all I could find was celebrity inspired books out there and raising kids and it's packed not only with nutrition. And of course we talk about, you know, starting solids, Baby Led Weaning. We talk even about a traditional, you know, sort of quote unquote pureed spoonfed approach. But we also dig into other things that, you know, parents are talking about picky eating. We talk a lot about some of the FAQ's that come up. Like we talked about before with allergies, but also, Hey, I'm a, I'm a vegan or plant-based mom and my kids going to a birthday party and there's going to be X, Y, and Z there. What do we do?

Alexandra Caspero (25m 23s):

And just sort of, you know, really trying to sort of have these, have these conversations and sort of like, look, here's what research says. And then also here's sort of how we empower you to make the decisions in your own family. And then it's also another part cookbooks. We have 50 recipes, lots of them designed for a baby toddler, but then also family meals as well. And for all of the family meals, we also show you how to serve it for all age groups, because that's the beauty of baby led weaning is that you're making essentially one meal, but then you can modify it, right? So you can say, okay, this is how baby's going to get it, but this is how I'm going to eat at this time. My toddler's going to be in. And that's one of the reasons why we love baby led weaning so much is because, gosh, we're busy two, like I don't have time to make all these different meals and snacks.

Alexandra Caspero (26m 5s):

I need my kids eating what I'm eating.

Whitney English (26m 9s):

And we've got about 300 scientific references in there.

Katie Ferraro (26m 12s):

Is that all? I'm just kidding

Whitney English (26m 12s):

That's all

Alexandra Caspero (26m 13s):

Listen, we said, we need evidence-based books. So we did it

Katie Ferraro (26m 14s):

I know because like you say it, and then you actually have to go and do it. That's how I got some of these episodes. Two we'll have like these researchers on. And then people would be like, where is the exact study that she mentioned at the 15 minute mark? And I was like, that's why we asked for every single reference ahead of time, just send it to me. And then we like, look at me like two people actually downloading and reading this. That's so interesting.

Alexandra Caspero (26m 34s):

I hope. Yeah. And the thing that I think that we we've really tried to focus on is like, look, yes, we're quote unquote evidence-based, but we're also real life moms too. You know, like I, and dietitians, I mean, you've been in the clinical setting and I think it's so important to sort of like take those recommendations and say, and this is how it works in the field, right? This is how it works between you and your child. And also your child might not like broccoli three times a day. And in that case, we need to talk about supplements. We need to talk about fortification. Like we need to talk about these things where on paper, it may seem like, oh, this is great. But if your child doesn't eat it, we've got a cup of some workarounds. And so it's a lot of sort of like, this is the science, but also here is here's the mom approach two, because we're in the trenches with you, you know, we've got picky toddlers.

Alexandra Caspero (27m 15s):

We've got, you know, we know how to, how to deal with

Katie Ferraro (27m 18s):

That's I love you guys. You're like going through it in real life with your own children, but you have the professional background, but you also realize like, Hey, I mean, anyone that claims the baby that we need is going to prevent picky eating is lying to you because all children will experience some degree of picky eating starting in the second year of life. However, having had exposure to a greater variety of foods and flavors and tastes and textures early and often means it's going to be less tragic than it might otherwise be. But like, I'm not saying it's not going to happen. So like I love when I hear the parents who have to be able to mean like, yeah, my kid's a little bit picky, but like, we're going to get through it. And I would still do baby led weaning because it's not the really, really extreme, picky eating, which unfortunately, you know, there's lots of reasons that that could occur. But like, I appreciate you guys do keep it real about what's happening in your families as well.

Katie Ferraro (28m 2s):

So for parents who are interested in raising plant-based babies and children, but they don't know how to get started. Like, I hear this message from dietitians, like Whitney and Alex and Katie like, oh, I should be eating more plants. Like how should they even begin to prepare if they are looking to make that shift towards a more plant-based lifestyle?

Whitney English (28m 22s):

So we always recommend just starting small. And again, that's the beauty of predominantly plant-based, you're not going from a meat, heavy diet, all of a sudden cutting out everything that could be, whether it's one meal a week, that's completely plant-based whether you're making sure or whether you're setting aside a full day, whether you're just making sure that the majority of your plate 80 to 90% is plant-based of each meal every little bit helps. And one tip is taking a food, maybe that your kid already likes and swapping out foods. So if you know, your kid loves quesadillas for instance, and they're used to having those with some meat and their, and some cheese in there, swapping in a bean for the meat one time, seeing how that goes swapping in some plant-based cheese options, we've got like an awesome nacho cheese sauce that you can put in the middle of your quesadilla.

Whitney English (29m 15s):

So just making gradual changes and working with where your child is already at with their preferences and their palette, and not doing anything two abroad, because we know that kids thrive on what they already know. And if you're just all of a sudden throwing them for a loop and taking out all their favorite foods, and obviously they're not going to respond very well.

Alexandra Caspero (29m 32s):

And I all sort of add on that and say, I think one of the other beauties of a predominantly plant-based approach is that none of these foods have to be thought about as like different or other. It's just, yeah, they're all part of, of foods, right? I mean, the foods that we're talking about, the goons, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts seeds, like these are all foods that are already part of any diet for the most part, it's just putting more of an emphasis on them. And so I think that is one of, sort of the, the challenges that we, that we say to parents like, Hey, where can we get a plant on the plate? You know, especially if you're not used to sort of thinking about your child's food like that. And the last thing I will sort of say on that line is especially if your children are older and these are perhaps not foods that they've been introduced to, it may take some time and that is totally normal and totally okay.

Alexandra Caspero (30m 17s):

Keep introducing, you know, you can play different. I have them in the kitchen with you and, and sort of have that exposure. You can take them to the grocery store, you know, have that exposure two, but just sort of the more of these become what I call quote, unquote, like family meals. They're going to be way more interested in accepting them instead, if it's like, oh, this is something that's, you know, plant-based or be like, well, no, these are just foods that a lot of us already eat. Yeah.

Whitney English (30m 44s):

And that's a good tip for adults to introduce a meal as, Hey, this is a vegan XYZ to someone who is not used to eating that way. They're going to have a lot more harsh reaction than if you just serve it. Because a lot of foods are a lot of recipes and meals are naturally already plant-based they don't need to be sold as that. I think

Katie Ferraro (31m 1s):

It's such a great approach. It's like always focus on the foods that you can eat. You know, I remember like I used to like nutrition counseling and someone gets diagnosed with celiac disease. You don't give them a whole list of all the stuff they can't eat. Like that's going to freak them out. They're not going to want to listen to you or come back and see you, or be adherent to the diet that they need to be to thrive, like focus on the foods that they can eat. There are so many other foods out there. And I feel like even like in my program with the hundred first foods like parents, like, dude, I didn't even know like 20 different starchy foods existed. It's like, they're out there. You just got to work with her and the rotation and find easy, affordable, convenient ways that like the whole family can eat them.

Whitney English (31m 35s):

Yes. What can you add? Not what do we need to subtract. That's what we,

Katie Ferraro (31m 38s):

And dietitian need to be careful of that, like you have a reputation of being the food police and telling people what they can't eat. And that's why I love the work that you guys are doing is it's like, no, let's focus on all of these foods that people can eat. They don't have to be different or other, as you said, they're just foods. All right. Well, tell us, where can our audience go to learn more about your guys' work and especially about your new book?

Alexandra Caspero (31m 59s):

Yes. You can find us on most social channels. We are very, very active over on Instagram at plant-based juniors. And then our book is called the plant-based baby and toddler. It is available everywhere. And if you had two plant-based baby and toddler.com, we've got all of the links for sort of easy, easy ways to grab it depending on where you live.

3 (32m 15s):

And I will link to all of your guys' resources that you mentioned in this episode on the show notes for this episode@blwpodcast.com.

Alexandra Caspero (32m 24s):

Awesome. Thank you.

Katie Ferraro (32m 25s):

Thank you guys so much for joining me. This is so fun.

Alexandra Caspero and Whitney English (32m 29s):

Thanks for having us. Good to see you.

Katie Ferraro (32m 30s):

Well, I hope you guys enjoyed that episode with Alex and Whitney from plant-based juniors. I just love how down to earth they are. They're like real life moms in the thick of it, figuring out not only how to feed their family, a predominantly plant-based diet, but also providing really important evidence-based nutrition information for their community at plant-based juniors. So be sure to check out Alex and Whitney's brand new book, the plant based baby and toddler. I will link that up on the show notes for this episode over blwpodcast.com.