How Long Can I Breastfeed? with Ronietra Stewart, RDN, IBCLC

Katie Ferraro (0s):

Okay. This email a mom just sent me, my baby Amelia, is seven and a half months and self-feeding since her disgust at me trying to spoon feed her purees on day one. I've listened to 200 of your podcast episodes in the last four weeks. 200 episodes, for real. I love this. But I also totally acknowledge that you may not have time to listen to hundreds of hours of audio or hunt and peck all over the internet to piece together how to start solid foods. If you're not sure where to start, I have a free online video workshop called Baby-Led Weaning for Beginners. It's very succinct, I just rerecorded it. It's packed with tons of videos about safely prepping food for your baby and what to do if they have an allergic reaction and how to lower your anxiety about joking risk.

Katie Ferraro (41s):

Plus everybody on this free training also gets a copy of my 100 First Foods list so you'll never run out of ideas about what to feed your baby next. So you're welcome to listen to 200 plus episodes of this show, but if you've got 75 minutes, you can clear on your calendar the Baby-Led Weaning for Beginners video workshop is probably a better use of your time. You can get signed up for the workshop by heading to the website babyledweaning.co. Again, that's babyledweaning.co for the free Baby-Led Weaning for Beginners video workshop where you also can grab a copy of my original 100 First Food list. Your baby choking on food is a very rare but real risk and CPR can save your baby's life.

Katie Ferraro (1m 21s):

I think it's very important that every parent and caregiver take an infant refresher CPR course before their baby starts solid foods. I know in our house everyone involved in helping with our kids and who helps to feed babies needs to know CPR. And there's a fabulous online CPR course that I take every quarter and that I recommend to parents and caregivers. And right now you can get the same online CPR course for free when you sign up for my choking prevention and response course. So I developed The Choking Prevention and Response Course. I co-teach it with Brandon Dorsen. He's a certified CPR instructor from Thrive Training Institute. We also co-teach with the speech language pathologist who specializes in pediatric swallowing. So this course is for parents who are particularly anxious about their baby choking on food.

Katie Ferraro (2m 1s):

If that is you, I created The, Choking Prevention and Response Course for you. And inside of it I'll show you how to stop unsafe seating situations. We have a posture checklist proven to protect your child's airway. I'll show you how to modify choking risk foods. It's so important to facilitate safe swallowing for infants. And then we'll troubleshoot feeding difficulties that can impact safe swallowing at mealtimes. Things like pocketing and overt stuffing and excessive gagging. We cover all of that and you get free lifetime access to the online CPR course when you register for The Choking Prevention and Response Course. So in order to sign up for this special, you go to the website bit.ly/cprchoking. So I'll spell that out.

Katie Ferraro (2m 46s):

It's bit.ly/cprchoking in order to get free online CPR when you register for The, Choking Prevention and Response Course

Ronietra Stewart (2m 55s):

Breastfeeding is recommended exclusively is what the recommendation is for the first six months. But then the addition of solids are to compliment Breastfeeding, not take over as a predominant source of nutrition, but to compliment it. So moms are still encouraged to breastfeed as you know they were before, but to slowly introduce solid foods. 'Cause we know around six months babies need like that extra iron breast milk specifically lowering iron. They need that iron and they need that zinc which could come from like protein rich foods, beans, fish, you know, eggs and things of that nature.

Katie Ferraro (3m 25s):

Hey there, I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in Baby-Led Weaning. Here on the Baby-Led Weaning with Katie Ferraro podcast. I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, giving you the confidence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid foods using Baby-Led Weaning. How long can you breastfeed for and how long should you breastfeed for depending upon where you live in the world, that answer varies dramatically. Worldwide, there's some areas where weaning off of the breast happens when a child is age four or age five.

Katie Ferraro (4m 5s):

And if you think about the United States, things look dramatically different. If you're breastfeeding, you've definitely thought about what it's gonna stop, right? Either 'cause you're struggling and it is not something you wanna do forever. Or maybe it's because you absolutely love breastfeeding and you're starting to get sad about the day when it'll all come to an end. Almost every major health body is aligned on this idea of exclusive breastfeeding for the first six months of life being ideal for a baby. In fact, that's what informs all of my education about delaying the start of solid foods, right? Because babies don't need to eat anything except infant milk. That's breast milk or formula for the first six months of their life. And so when doctors or other sources tell parents to start solid foods at four or five months of age, I maintain that that is an anti breastfeeding message.

Katie Ferraro (4m 49s):

My guest today is one of the most pro breastfeeding people that you will ever meet and love. Her name is Ronietra Stewart. She goes by Roni. Roni is a registered dietitian and an IBCLC. So she's an iInternational Board Certified Lactation Consultant. She is a breastfeeding pro and guru Roni works for the WIC program. So that is in the United States, our USDA's special supplemental nutrition program for women, infants and children. Okay? And this is a program that half of all babies born in the US are on the WIC program. Every time I hear that statistic, it just blows my mind. So I'll say it again. Half of all babies born in the US receive WIC benefits which include not only wholesome foods, but also nutrition education from qualified and credentialed professionals like Roni.

Katie Ferraro (5m 33s):

So Roni works for PHFE WIC here in California. This is also the nation's largest WIC agency. They are like the golden child, like a model in so many ways for different programs throughout the country. But as Roni will explain today, they actually piloted the original breastfeeding peer counselor program in WIC that has been so successful and so emulated. And one area where Roni has found professionally that like a lot of breastfeeding moms struggle is what to do once the baby turns six months of age, right? Right? Because you get all sorts of grief for continuing to nurse a quote unquote older baby. But that baby is still getting massive benefits from continued breastfeeding and mom also reaps a lot of benefits herself from continuing to breastfeed. So Roni is here today to talk about extended breastfeeding going beyond six months of age and maybe you've contemplated, you know, given it up at six months or 12 months.

Katie Ferraro (6m 21s):

But I think when you hear this conversation you might perhaps consider pushing that timeline for breastfeeding a little bit further out. Also, as an absolute and abject failure at breastfeeding myself for all seven of my kids, I personally think the thought of nursing a three or 4-year-old like that is totally foreign to me. I pumped like crazy for all those kids, but you can bet I was counting down the days till I could stop. So I just want to acknowledge that extended breastfeeding may not be a possibility or a desire or a reality for many new moms. But I also wanna give the space and the opportunity for Roni who is a dietician and an IBCLC to share this message about the benefits of extended breastfeeding, which as she'll mention, dovetails with the World Health Organization and now the American Academy of Pediatrics who jointly recommend continuing breastfeeding until age two.

Katie Ferraro (7m 9s):

So if you're at this intersection of starting solid foods and breastfeeding, I hope you guys enjoy this interview. Please take a second wherever you're listening to this episode, to hit subscribe or follow this Baby-Led Weaning podcast so that you can get notified when each of the two episodes that I release each week are live. I do a mini Baby-Led Weaning training episode every Monday and then a longer feeding expert interview on Thursday with people like Roni. So please do subscribe and if you have a mom friend or a colleague or a family member who's also starting solid foods soon, please tell them about the Baby-Led Weaning with Katie Ferraro podcast. 'cause your guys' word of mouth recommendations are so important and it's the way other parents can find this information if they're out there searching for it.

Katie Ferraro (7m 49s):

So with no further ado, I wanted to bring on Ronietra Stewart who is here to talk about how long can you breastfeed for.

Ronietra Stewart (8m 0s):

During my education with pre natals at WIC. I noticed some of them would say that they wanna breastfeed until they're, you know, until the baby turns six months. And I would always kind of like push back and kind of ask, well why until six months? Why not longer? And then the most responses that I would get would be, well that's when they start to eat solid so you know, I don't need to breastfeeding anymore. And then they'll also mention like having to return to work and then just kind of educating them on. Breastfeedin is recommended exclusively for the first six months, but then the intro of solids or complimentary foods is recommended at that age. But breastfeeding is usually recommended to continue up until at least two years of age, which is from the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Ronietra Stewart (8m 40s):

Their recommendation used to be to go up to a year, but they've recently aligned with the World Health Organization I would say about maybe two years ago where they're recommending that moms breastfeed up to two and just letting them know that they have options. Like okay, if you're returning to work at six months, we have pumps that we can loan to you. If they're supposed to be breastfeeding, it's very easy to be able to loan them out a pump if they're working. And just letting them know that there's benefits to breastfeeding beyond six months breastfeeding.

Katie Ferraro (9m 6s):

I love that Breastfeeding idea beyond six months because you're right, like we've done a good job of I think trying to get the message out there that exclusive breastfeeding is all your baby needs for the six months, but then it's like that latter half of infancy your parents are like, well then they start foods like your client said and it's like, no, there's benefits and that's what we're gonna talk about today. Like the benefits of going beyond six months of age, acknowledging that for some families it's not working, they're done. Maybe there's medical stuff, there's lots of reasons why a mom may choose not to breastfeed, but there's a lot of reasons why you might consider going beyond. So before, before we get there, I wanna back up. Tell us a little bit about your background. I know you spent your professional career at WIC, but you've moved through a lot of different areas to get to where you are now to be in charge of.

Katie Ferraro (9m 47s):

Yes, I have the peer breastfeeding counseling program at the program at PHFE WIC. And you guys are the biggest WIC program in the country if I'm not mistaken.

Ronietra Stewart (9m 54s):

Yes we are. And we actually have the largest peer counselor program as well. We actually just turned 20 years old. We had a celebration actually a week ago today where we were one of the first pilot projects of the state to roll out a BC program and we just turned 20 actually last week, so.

Katie Ferraro (10m 8s):

How did you get into breastfeeding and what is it about this area of nutrition that is of such interest to you?

Ronietra Stewart (10m 13s):

When I got to WIC, I was just super excited about learning about breastfeeding, what the benefits were to mom and baby, why it's recommended. And I just wanted to learn more and more. And through my training with the WIC, I felt like it was okay, but I needed a little bit more. So I decided to go get my certified lactation educator certificate and I felt like that helped as well. But then when we started CinnaMoms, which is a program for our African-American participants to encourage breastfeeding to kind of combat those low Breastfeeding rates and our unacceptable infant maternal mortality rates, there was an opportunity that came up to become an IBCLC to kind of help diversify the field. And I of course jumped on board with that.

Ronietra Stewart (10m 53s):

And you know, I worked as an RD. I became, after I did my dietetic internship, I became a supervisor of a WIC center. Worked there for some years and it always kind of bothered me that I wasn't really using my IBCLC hat. So the fullest I think of my abilities. And I just decided to leave the department that I was in still with WIC but to join the breastfeeding department so I could actually utilize my IBCLC credential along with my RD credential as well. And I became a supervisor of peer counselors. So I kind of made a lateral move just to kind of get into the breastfeeding department, supervising peer counselors learning about what they do. If you are a WIC participant, you're pregnant, you wanna breastfeed, definitely ask for a peer counselor.

Ronietra Stewart (11m 35s):

And then from there I just jump from supervising on up to management where I am today.

Katie Ferraro (11m 40s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back.

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Katie Ferraro (12m 23s):

We have a lot of parents who listen. Moms a lot of times confused about breastfeeding. 'cause once solid foods are introduced to their baby's diet, they think like, well don don't really know what goes on with breastfeeding. So could you explain how breastfeeding changes or evolves when the baby starts solid foods?

Ronietra Stewart (12m 38s):

So with breastfeeding, like I said with the American Academy of Pediatrics, breastfeeding is recommended, you know exclusively is what the recommendation is for the first six months. But then the addition of solids are to compliment breastfeeding not take over as a predominant source of nutrition, but to compliment it. So moms are still encouraged to breastfeed as you know they were before, but to slowly introduce solid foods because we know around six months babies need like that extra iron breast milk is typically lower in iron. They need that iron and they need that zinc which could come from like protein rich foods, beans, fish, you know, eggs and things of that nature. But yeah, the goal is not to just, you know, get to six months and stop. Breastfeeding should continue I would say at least up to the age of two or whatever.

Ronietra Stewart (13m 21s):

It's mutually ex, you know, exclusive between mom and baby whenever they wanna stop. 'Cause I have, I have coworkers that are breastfed their children to three and four years old. So you know, it's really between mom and baby when she wants to stop breastfeeding. But once solids are introduced, they're just to compliment your breastfeeding not to take over as a primary source. Just like with anybody that's formula feeding. When you, when you formula feed your baby and you introduce solids, you don't stop the formula. We recommend that up until 18 month.

Katie Ferraro (13m 49s):

You want to 'cause it's expensive but yeah and I know yeah.

Ronietra Stewart (13m 52s):

But we don't recommend stopping that.

Katie Ferraro (13m 54s):

And the WIC program is gonna give you formula until 12 months. But after 12 months of age, ideally we're transitioning that baby to cow's milk if that's what the family drinks. But breastfeeding, you can keep going if you want to if, and I love that you keep pointing out if mom and baby are into it.

Ronietra Stewart (14m 7s):

Yes are into it. Yeah. The recommendation truly is up to the age of two, both the American Academy of Pediatrics and the World Health Organization, but literally the Worldwide age of weaning is really around five. So when people hear that they are breastfeeding two year olds, it's like that's okay. Like I mentioned, I have coworkers that are breastfed babies. So there were 2, 3, 4 Worldwide. Age of weaning is five when kids actually start school. So it's really truly between mom and baby, I mean past one year of age then the solid foods become the primary nutrition, it kind of reverses and then breastfeeding is there as an added layer of protection and support. Mom is still providing immunity to the baby and then you have that comfort and bonding moments as well.

Ronietra Stewart (14m 50s):

With breastfeeding past one year.

Katie Ferraro (14m 52s):

Roni, let's say you have a mom and she got to the one year mark and baby's getting most of their nutrition from food beyond one year. Can we talk about frequency and duration of breastfeeding sessions? How does that look different in the second year of life compared to the maybe latter half of infancy? So like once you cross over that one year mark, what can you expect to see change wise with regards to frequency and duration?

Ronietra Stewart (15m 14s):

Yeah, frequency duration. Initially with the mom that supposed be breastfeeding, you know, we recommend you're gonna be breastfeeding 10 or more times in the 24 hours. Then you know as they get a little older hit the six month mark that may decrease. But once they're past one it could be whatever you guys decide, it could be a few times a day, two, three times a day. It's really between what mom and baby wants to do. Usually when babies wanna take a nap or go to sleep, they'll usually latch and wanna breastfeed. So I would say usually around two to three times or it could be more than that. It's really between mom and baby, the frequency and duration.

Katie Ferraro (15m 44s):

I know we talked a little bit, I wanted to ask about the guidelines. Like okay, how long should moms breastfeed their babies? don don't even don don't like that word should because this is all personal preference. This is.

Ronietra Stewart (15m 55s):

Or recommendation.

Katie Ferraro (15m 56s):

Or recommendation. But you're saying a a P and World Health Organization both say breastfeed until two. Yeah. Like is WIC aligned with that message? Are you guys now sharing that message? Hey mom, you could consider doing this up until two.

Ronietra Stewart (16m 10s):

Yes. Because we used to really align with the American Academy of Pediatric and then at six months introducing solids. But they recently changed their stance or recommendation to align with the World Health Organization and we educate at WIC as well that the recommendation is up to two. So when I hear mom say, oh I wanna go until six months or even a year, I usually say, well you know the American Academy of Pediatrics, you know they recommended up until two years of life. But you know, truly it's, you know, it's up to you and baby. But that is the recommendation.

Katie Ferraro (16m 40s):

And I like that pointing out that the Worldwide, you know, weaning age is somewhere closer to five because that is remarkably different just because what you see around you in our country, that doesn't mean what happens all over the world where a lot of times there's less nutritious food supply available or it might cost a greater percentage of disposable income or whatever the case may be. That we know there's lots and lots and lots of things that contribute to breastfeeding rates. But this idea of like just 'cause all your friends stop at six months, you know, doesn't mean that you have to also, I think that's great messaging.

Ronietra Stewart (17m 8s):

Yes. I always say compliment solid should compliment breastfeeding or even if you're formula feeding, it's not to take over.

Katie Ferraro (17m 14s):

You touched a little on the nutritional benefits for babies of continuing breastfeeding. You mentioned iron and no one's bashing breast milk and saying it's low in iron. That type of iron that's in there is very easily absorbed by the baby for the first six months of life. Six, right? We start those solid foods to start giving them some other sources of nutrition and practice with textures and swallowing and all of the different developmental things that are associated with learning how to eat, not just nutrition. What are the nutritional benefits for babies and for moms of continuing breastfeeding beyond six months of age?

Ronietra Stewart (17m 43s):

Okay, I think with duration definitely the benefits are greater for mothers that breastfeed, whether it's up to six months or even beyond, which is even better. There are protections, you know, know it helps mothers. They're more protected against reproductive types of cancers like breast cancer, ovarian uterine cancer. It can also protect from type two diabetes. It helps relieve stress. And for babies it's just, you know that whole, the protection of mother being able to pass on like antibodies and protect the baby immunologically is just like priceless.

Katie Ferraro (18m 14s):

What about the moms who want to continue breastfeeding after they introduce solids, right? You got like there's a competitor at play, like there's foods in there. Not saying they're competing but like you were the only show in town for the first six months of life and now we're starting some solid foods. Any strategies for moms on maintaining their milk supply after they start solid foods? 'Cause theoretically weaning in action is there's gonna be shorter, you know, less frequency, shorter duration as the baby gets more proficient at eating foods. How does mom keep her milk supply up?

Ronietra Stewart (18m 43s):

Yeah, I would recommend mom maybe nurse before offering solids. So maybe breastfeeding before and then introducing whatever you're gonna offer for that day or at that moment just making sure baby's latched and have breastfed and then maybe offering the solids to kind of help make sure that mom is continuing to remove breast milk so that she'll continue to produce it. 'Cause that's truly how you make milk. You gotta remove it to replace it. So if mom is breastfeeding first and then like offering solids at mealtime, I think that would be helpful as well.

Katie Ferraro (19m 12s):

And I think the other point there too is when your baby starts solid foods, they're not very proficient at eating food yet. And so they can't use that food right to make the feelings of hunger go away. So a big mistake I see parents making is like they're bringing their six, seven month old baby to the table hungry. Like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Feed that baby. Do your regular infant milk feed be that breastfeeding or bottle feeding. With bottle feeding. Sometimes they're taking a lot more volume and we need a little pad at the end to help the stomach empty. But like a breastfeeding baby is not taken down six to eight ounces at seven, eight months of age. So you can have that breast milk snack so mom feels comfortable, the baby feels satiated and then they're gonna be a little bit more alert at the table and more likely to engage in eating the food. And then down the road when they learn how to eat, that's when like oh food can help alleviate hunger.

Katie Ferraro (19m 55s):

But definitely not at the beginning. You gotta keep those infant milk feeds going. So that's a great reminder. What are some of the common challenges that you see moms facing who wanna maintain breastfeeding when they're transitioning to solid foods?

Ronietra Stewart (20m 7s):

I would say usually at that time moms, some moms are returning to work so really they're returning to work and having to pump just kind of helping moms come, you know, have a pumping plan put in place to kind of make sure that when she's away from baby we're still removing milk so that way we can protect milk supply. I would say that's the biggest one. And then for some moms that maybe don't have to return to work but notice a slight dip, that slight dip is kind of normal. Your body's pretty much downregulating as baby eats more and more solids. So for mothers that's bothered by that like downregulation and wanna keep up their milk supply at, you know, at the level that they were before they introduced solids, we would recommend either latching more or they could pump basically. And especially if they're introducing the cup, they could pump and put their breast milk in the cup.

Katie Ferraro (20m 49s):

And I love that too because we want the babies to go from breast or bottle to an open cup. We don't need to have them be on a sippy cup. And I know that breast milk is so precious and you don't wanna spill it, but it's something, it's another way to utilize your breast milk and to practice these open cup skills. When you say you want them latching more or pumping, does that actually mean increase the frequency of breastfeeding sessions.

Ronietra Stewart (21m 11s):

If they feel like they're struggling with supply? I mean you have to remove milk to make milk and you do that by either latching or either pumping so they could potentially latch more. Or if they're finding that it's a bit hard with introducing the solids too, then they can always pump as well.

Katie Ferraro (21m 30s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break but I'll be right back.

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Katie Ferraro (22m 5s):

What sort of cultural or societal factors are you seeing with the families you work with that influence the mom's decision regarding breastfeeding duration Other than introducing solids and other than like the need to return to work.

Ronietra Stewart (22m 16s):

I would say I know like during some of our center mom support circles, we would talk about like solids. I would hear from some of the parents or some of the moms that they feel a little pressure to kind of like stop breastfeeding and they're getting that pressure from family because they feel like the baby's eating now the baby's looks too big to be at the breast and it's like, you know, we just kind of remind them to gently educate their partners or their parents on the benefits of breastfeeding for both mom and baby actually for all of us for this society, breastfeeding benefits. But yeah, it's usually sometimes from family or even friends making little comments about oh that baby's big, that baby's able to feed himself.

Ronietra Stewart (22m 56s):

They do the same thing, breastfeeding.

Katie Ferraro (22m 57s):

All that baby's too big, your breast milk's not enough needs to start solid foods early. Oh that baby's too small. Needs more nutrition from, it's like everybody commenting about the size of your baby. Like I get it just you want to hide in your own house by yourself and feed your baby without everyone else's input. But I think also the idea, like the whole model of CinnaMoms and support groups is like to normalize this like hey yes this is a struggle. Let's talk about the things that are hard. Let's talk about the benefits of continuing on and support each other so that when someone says you, oh that baby looks too big to breastfeed. Like that is someone's personal opinion. And first of all, we should all learn not to comment on the size of anyone else's body.

Ronietra Stewart (23m 32s):

Right?

Katie Ferraro (23m 32s):

But it's like so socially acceptable to say things like that and and it shouldn't be and it usually comes from family.

Ronietra Stewart (23m 39s):

Yeah. So they can sometimes get a little discouraged but it's like no this, when you wanna stop it, I mean we recommend it up to two years but when you wanna stop it's truly between you and your baby. Don't let other people influence your decision. You're doing what's best for you and your baby health wise and nutrition wise. So continue on. You just have to educate people 'cause they just don't know.

Katie Ferraro (23m 57s):

And guess where else do you learn about education, right? You might take like one breastfeeding class at the hospital before you have a baby, there's a lactation consultant who might come around like literally 12 minutes after you gave birth to a baby and your milk hasn't even come in. And like the wonderful thing about the WIC program and outpatient support groups is like you can go back when you're actually dealing with the problems, which is when you go home and you're by yourself and it's so isolating and you're like, I think I'm doing everything right and this baby's not latching or they're not transferring. Like that's where your IBCLC and lactation educators are so helpful because this is not something you just like figure out and then you're good, right? Like there's mastitis and you have issues with supply and you might get sick or a baby gets sick. It's like it's so easy to stop and it's so hard to keep going.

Ronietra Stewart (24m 38s):

Yeah. That's why our peer counselors are awesome at what they do. Like when you know, they educate mom prenatally throughout her pregnancy. But when baby gets there, when baby's born, you know our contact frequency with mom is a little, it's usually like twice within the first week of life weekly up until the baby's about a month old and then we're still checking in with mom and once maybe it's one monthly and then up until six months she says on the program. So we have that enhanced like layer of breastfeeding support with our peer counselor program, which is you know, usually highly recommended for any mom that's on with that thinks that she even wants to breastfeed.

Katie Ferraro (25m 13s):

Roni, how can we work towards creating a more supportive environment? Like we talk about some of the cultural limitations is like if you've got a mom or a mother law home telling you that baby's too big to breastfeed, like how can we counteract that? Like you cannot get rid of your mom or your mother-in-law, but like how can we make more supportive environments for moms who want to breastfeed beyond the introduction of solid foods like, like what's working for you guys at WIC and CinnaMoms?

Ronietra Stewart (25m 33s):

I would have to say definitely we just recommend that you know what they're learning, they share with their family, educate your your partner, educate your, your mom or your mother-in-law. You know, you have to kind of advocate for yourself and push back against like old wives tales when your mother-in-law's telling you, oh you gotta cover up or you're gonna, your gonna dry up. You know, just kind of combating like myths basically. And just educating people And usually prenatally when I'm doing enrollments and I'm asking mom how she wants to feed the baby. If she, if she says she wants to breastfeed, I always ask, okay so who are your supporters gonna be? What is your support network? If we don't have one, let's put one in place right now you have a WIC, you have cinema moms outside of CinnaMoms.

Ronietra Stewart (26m 13s):

We also have breastfeeding support groups in seven different languages here at WIC. So it's like you have options and resources so we can definitely be your village, tell your healthcare provider, but get your family and your support system in place because those first, first two weeks of breastfeeding are gonna be challenging and you need your family rooting for you instead of think they're helping you by saying, oh just give that baby some formula or that baby's too big now he's six months, he can feed himself. Why are you still breastfeeding? It's just educating their their, their partners, their parents, their in-laws, just, you know.

Katie Ferraro (26m 44s):

I like that idea. Share what you're learning with your family. Parents say that all the time, like I'm learning all this stuff about baby, like weaning from you Katie, like can you teach my husband, partner mom? It's like no, you can't do it. You do it, you do it because you are the biggest advocate for your thing. Be that breastfeeding or starting solid foods or doing both of those. 'Cause we, we do multiple things at the same time. We're not done breastfeeding when we start solid foods. And I heard you slip that myth in there, cover up where your milk is gonna dry up. Like what are some other myths that you hear? Like we kind of like laugh but like every culture's different. They all have their own made up stuff and for whatever reason the breastfeeding, it's like you've never done it before. Here's an older sister or mom or colleague who has and all of a sudden we like believe everything they say. What are some of the myth myths out there that you're still hearing that you're kind of like working hard to counteract?

Ronietra Stewart (27m 29s):

Right. And then when of course when I hear them and when our career counselors here, then we don't laugh of course.

Katie Ferraro (27m 33s):

No, I know and I'm not implying you do, but like.

Ronietra Stewart (27m 39s):

We definitely acknowledge and respect cultural traditions but we just gently educate on the truths about breastfeeding. You know, if you cover up, if you don't cover up that doesn't really affect supply. We kind of educate on how the body makes milk. You make milk by removing milk. So if you cover up that doesn't mean your milk's gonna dry up. So just like educating, that is one that I've heard. What is another one that I've heard? Just certain foods that you have to eat, you have to stay in the house for 30 to 40 days, you can't shower. Just I've heard all kind of things that are told to our participants by their, by their mothers, by their in-laws to kind of help with breastfeeding or just the recovery of the postpartum period. Not going out for 30, 40 days, not showering, covering up and eating certain foods.

Ronietra Stewart (28m 22s):

A lot of it.

Katie Ferraro (28m 23s):

What are the certain foods, I mean I'm sure that varies from culture to culture, but like what are some foods you hear either like, you should eat more of this or you should eat less of this. And like again, if it doesn't affect milk supply and production as a credentialed feeding expert, like we're obligated to educate on the science behind it. But you're right to tiptoeing gently to not offend anyone's cultural preferences.

Ronietra Stewart (28m 43s):

Anyone. Exactly. Exactly. Cultural, yeah. Beliefs or preferences. But yeah, like mainly the soups. There's this drink that's made with like chocolate, just oatmeal. Just certain foods that certain cultures feel like will really help with breastfeeding are usually offered to moms but to a point where they get sick of it and it's like I've had enough of the soup, the chicken soup I've had enough. Yeah. But just basically, you know, respecting cultural traditions but gently educating and empowering our participants to advocate for themselves and also to educate or kind of push back a little bit when they are bombarded with sometimes the, the old wives tales from families or from in-laws. Yeah.

Katie Ferraro (29m 22s):

Eventually all breastfeeding relationships come to an end. What are some gentle strategies for moms and babies to transition away from breastfeeding when they've mutually determined that the time is right? Right.

Ronietra Stewart (29m 32s):

You wanna just make sure that you're comfortable You. Don't wanna just quit cold Turkey because you will be become uncomfortable. But just like certain tricks and tips are like don't offer but don't refuse. Don't offer the breast. But if the baby does wanna breastfeed, don't refuse cutting those nursing sessions down. Like maybe the nighttime session is usually the hardest to get rid of, but just like gently like cutting down a session per day can kind of help you slow down and kind of speed up the weaning process. I have coworkers that stated that they've used bandaids. They put bandaids on their breasts. On their nipples and they've told the baby, you know, it doesn't work, it's broken.

Ronietra Stewart (30m 13s):

And for some it's worked.

Katie Ferraro (30m 14s):

Hey, whatever works.

Ronietra Stewart (30m 14s):

Yeah. I had one mom, she said she put lemon. I'm like, oh my gosh. She put lemons lemon juice on her, on her breast. I when the baby last. It was like a very unpleasant taste. But I usually just recommend that, you know, don't offer but don't refuse. And just like basically cutting out a nursing session until you kind of wind down to those last couple, two to three and then just from there, slowly winding down and cutting one out. Doing something in in place of the nursing, maybe reading a bedtime story, having a routine, things of that nature.

Katie Ferraro (30m 52s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break, but I'll be right back.

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Katie Ferraro (32m 24s):

Rodney, where can mothers find support or resources if they have questions or concerns about breastfeeding? 'Cause now they've already started solid foods, like I think there's a lot of stuff out there for like when you're just starting and trying to figure it out. Those first few weeks are so hard then you're kind of smooth sailing and then you're like, oh shoot, we gotta introduce food that's kind of messing stuff up. Where's a good place to learn more If you wanna continue breastfeeding beyond six months of age?

Ronietra Stewart (32m 47s):

I, I would say our website phfewic.org, we have tons of helpful information and handouts on introducing solids, introducing the cup, breastfeeding pumping. So that's definitely one resource that I could think of. And if you just have kind of like questions about like what does the World Health Organization think of breastfeeding, just Google, you know, the World Health Organization and put in breastfeeding and read about what knowledge they have there. But in terms of like information, I would say our, our website, whether you are on the program or not, you have access to it and it has, we have tons of great handouts.

Katie Ferraro (33m 18s):

You guys have so many good resources. We use 'em all the time. Yeah, for non WIC stuff too.

Ronietra Stewart (33m 25s):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Katie Ferraro (33m 26s):

And if you're looking for a breastfeeding educator or professional and you're, you're in that second half of infancy, are you still eligible for services? Like I know within WIC of course you are, but like outside of WIC or are you familiar like in the community, can you go and seek help if you wanna continue breastfeeding but you're not exactly sure how to go about that? 'Cause your baby started solid foods.

Ronietra Stewart (33m 46s):

Yeah, we recently started both myself and another African American location consultant at our, at our agency along with the peer counselor. We, we have actually breastfeeding drop-in clinics every Wednesday and Thursday at our CinnaMoms or Obama site, which is off of Crenshaw and Stalker. And we are, we've been given the green light to help people in the community. So even folks that are not on WIC are able to come and get breastfeeding help. So that's definitely one place that I know about. I'm trying to think. Free help for free, it's usually mainly through a WIC agency.

Katie Ferraro (34m 17s):

Yep. And I think the hospitals too. I know at least in San Diego, even if it's like you didn't have the baby there, like they don't care. Do you have a baby and do you want some breastfeeding help or usually, I mean I don't know if they're like, if that's a formal situation, but it's like I feel like I could always drop in anywhere and they'd be like, right, so willing to help you.

Ronietra Stewart (34m 35s):

Right. And then there's La Leche League as well that's in many areas everywhere. So you could always like look up La Leche League and then maybe put in your zip code to find a support group that's near you.

Katie Ferraro (34m 44s):

The referrals. Like ask your friends like do you have an IBCLC that you worked with the was, because there's lots of different types of educators out there. Not everyone is everyone's cup of tea. You gotta find the person that works for you. And I love the way at WIC you guys are always encouraging breastfeeding without sorry, but ramming it down your throat. It's like you acknowledge the real life limitations. It, it doesn't work for every family, but there's a lot of families that come back with second and third and fourth babies. They're like, I'm gonna give it a try. Because that WIC, the breastfeeding peer counselors and the IBCLCs, they really encouraged me to keep going even though it was hard because it is hard. But as you shared, it's so beneficial for baby and for mom.

Ronietra Stewart (35m 23s):

For and for mom. Yes.

Katie Ferraro (35m 23s):

Well thank you so much for this conversation. I really appreciate it Roni. It was great getting to chat with you.

Ronietra Stewart (35m 31s):

Thank you for having me.

Katie Ferraro (35m 32s):

Well I hope you guys enjoyed that interview with Ronietra Stewart about breastfeeding duration. I will put all of the links in the references that she mentioned so you can check out the PHFE WIC website for some of their information. If you're in person in California, in the LA area and you wanna check out CinnaMoms, I'll also link to the previous episode that I did with Dr. Toe Jackson and I'll also put it all in the show notes for this episode, which you can find blwpodcast.com/436. A special thank you to our partners at AirWave Media. If you guys like podcasts that feature food and science and using your brain, check out some of the shows on AirWave. We are online at blwpodcast.com. Thank you again for listening and I'll see you guys next time.