Taste Preferences in Babies: When and How do They Develop? with Alison Ventura, PhD

Alison Ventura (1m 31s):

These studies suggest that we have what we would call unlearned response to things like sweet, that we just naturally like those. We really don't need much learning to like sweet Taste and that from a evolutionary perspective makes sense that breastmilk is sweet. So it would be protective for us to be immediately attracted to that, that that's gonna support our, our health and survival as little Babies. But these studies also show that we have an unlearned aversion to bitter and to a certain extent sour Taste. And again, this makes sense because in the wild we don't have our nice grocery stores, but rather rather our foraging in nature, these bitter tasting Foods in nature are probably poisonous and things with sour, maybe rancid or rotten So, we wanna to be a little more careful around those Foods.

Alison Ventura (2m 18s):

And we also have a natural preference for savory as well. And that corresponds to breastmilk as well because it has high levels of savory amino acids in it. So, we have a natural natural liking for that

Katie Ferraro (2m 30s):

Hey there. I'm Katie Ferraro, registered dietitian, college nutrition professor and mom of seven specializing in baby-led weaning here on the Baby-Led Weaning Made Easy podcast I help you strip out all of the noise and nonsense about feeding, leaving you with the confidence and knowledge you need to give your baby a safe start to solid Foods using baby-led weaning. Well hello and welcome back. I'm excited to have Alison Ventura back on the on the podcast today to talk about Taste Preferences and preference development in Babies. So Alison is a PhD researcher. She works and teaches at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo in California. And at the end of our last interview she was on back in episode three 10 talking about Responsive bottle feeding Alison just like casually mentioned that she used to work at the acclaimed Monell Chemical Census Center and she was studying preference development in Babies.

Katie Ferraro (3m 23s):

And I was like, whoa, like this is fascinating to me cuz I don't know if you guys have heard of like some of these studies where researchers will give, for example, pregnant moms a set amount of carrot juice to drink and then they measure how the fetus responds. And I've always been like, wait a minute, how do you actually measure that? Spoiler alert, apparently they count the gulps of amniotic fluid that the baby takes after the mom drinks or eats one type of food compared to another like, like this is a legit science behind preference development. And then the other studies I've always been interested in are the ones where researchers will give Babies tastes of something so something sweet and then something sour. And then these like legit trained experts, people who study facial expression in Babies then measure the baby's reaction.

Katie Ferraro (4m 2s):

Alison's gonna share some more about the biological reasons that humans and Babies are naturally drawn to sweet Foods or why they turn their noses up and make a face at bitter Foods. And heads up another spoiler alert, this is not your license to like only ever feed your baby's fruit cuz they love it and not Bitter Vegetables cuz they pretend to not like it at first. Quite the contrary, Alison is going to teach us about repeated exposure studies, talk a little bit about variety studies and then just kinda this bigger idea of how really pushing your baby's palate can help you raise an independent eater. So with no further ado, here is Alison Ventura talking about Taste preference in Babies and when and how Taste Preferences develop.

Alison Ventura (4m 43s):

Hey, thanks for having me All.

Katie Ferraro (4m 45s):

Right last time you were here we were talking about Responsive bottle feeding and we were chatting after that interview And, you dropped that you had previously worked at the Monell Center on the topic of flavor Preferences, which I've been dying to cover. So I'm excited to learn more about this area of your work and your background. But before we get started, could you explain what the Monell center is and what type of work they do?

Alison Ventura (5m 5s):

Sure. So the Monell Center is located in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and they are a Taste and smell research institute. So they have some of the most foremost scientists in the fields of Taste and smell. And they're interested in understanding how these senses relate to our behaviors and health. So it was a great place to kind of learn more about this area of research and really understand how it applies to early childhood.

Katie Ferraro (5m 31s):

And what sort of projects did you work on when you were there?

Alison Ventura (5m 34s):

So I worked with Julie Monell who is one of the premier scientists in the world of flavor learning and early preference development and So. we did research with Babies looking at how Preferences and eating behaviors develop during early infancy So. we would bring moms and Babies into the lab and observe them feeding and in different contexts and try to understand how both, what the Babies were being fed as well as how they were being fed influenced the baby's outcomes.

Katie Ferraro (6m 3s):

And I know you mentioned like that Monell is a Taste and smell research institute and I think sometimes we, you know, we talk about learning how to eat being this full sensory experience for Babies and a lot of times in baby-led weaning that's in the context of parents being stressed about the baby getting messy and we say, you know, it's important for your baby to touch the food and smush it and and have that full like tactile experience but the smell part is so important and I'm not a sensory expert but smell precedes Taste. Is that correct? And could you share more about like how smell and Taste are actually related?

Alison Ventura (6m 36s):

Yeah, so it depends on what you're talking about. So Taste is really what's happening with your tongue that we have receptors on our tongue that detect the the basic Taste which are sweet, salty, savory, sour and bitter. Then you can think about flavor which is really the combination of Taste and smell. And so that's what your olfactory nerve or the what's going on in your nose is bringing to the the experience. So when you have the combination of Taste with all the odors that are in the food, that's what produces this idea of flavor which would be like the flavor of a strawberry, which is a combination of the sweet Taste of the, the sugars in the strawberry with the olfactory components or the the smell that the, the strawberry is giving you.

Alison Ventura (7m 24s):

And

Katie Ferraro (7m 25s):

I wanted to ask you Alison about this idea that a baby's flavor Preferences are shaped by the mother's diet even before birth. I mean most of our audience who's listening has already had at least one baby. But for context I get a lot of questions about seasoning Babies Foods and parents mistakenly thinking Babies need to eat bland food. And I usually respond that, you know, your baby's already been exposed to flavor compounds first during pregnancy through the amniotic fluid and I'm just curious like how do scientists actually know that?

Alison Ventura (7m 52s):

It's kind of crazy how they know that they have a lot of really interesting ways of getting at this and this type of research has been going on for a long time. So some ways that they know this are through looking at premature Babies and looking at how they respond to different flavors or or tastes that they're given. And they've been able to kinda make a guess from that of, oh if, if a baby who was born at 36 weeks gestation is reacting in this way, then you know that that might be something that they're also reacting to in the womb. There have been some studies looking at if things aren't injected into the womb and these are like old studies, we don't really do these types of studies anymore, but they can see if if there's a sweet sub substance that's injected into the womb that they can use measures of the mom's waist.

Alison Ventura (8m 39s):

Or more recently we have ultrasound Techniques that we can look at with the, if the baby then starts to swallow more amniotic fluid versus decreased swallowing. I just read a a study that was published just last year where they use 4D ultrasound and they actually had moms take a capsule. They either had carrot powder in it or kale powder in it and they found that about half an hour after the mom ingested the capsule when they then did the ultrasound they could see that the fetus was displaying negative faces when the mom ingested the kale capsule and positive like happy faces when the mom ingested the carrot capsule. So those suggest to us that that those tastes of flavors are getting into the occludin and the fetus is noticing and reacting.

Alison Ventura (9m 25s):

And is that

Katie Ferraro (9m 26s):

That like the kale versus carrot stuff is that you know the bitter Taste of a dark green leafy vegetable like kale compared to carrots which have a sweeter Taste because of their higher carbohydrate slash sugar account content.

Alison Ventura (9m 36s):

You got it. Yeah, yeah exactly. And so then we also have studies that look like immediately after birth at what happens if we give a newborn baby different tastes And this technique has been used to get at maybe some of these innate responses that we have to different tastes and these studies suggest that we have an innate or what we would call unlearned response to things like sweet that we just naturally like those, we really don't need much learning to like sweet Taste and that you know, from a evolutionary perspective makes sense that breastmilk is sweet. So it would be protective for us to be immediately attracted to that that cause that's gonna support our, our health and survival as little Babies.

Alison Ventura (10m 21s):

But these studies also show that we have an unlearned aversion to bitter and to a certain extent sour tastes. And again this makes sense because in the wild, if we don't have our nice grocery stores but rather rather we're foraging in nature, these bitter tasting Foods in nature are probably poisonous and things with sour maybe rancid or rotten So, we wanna to be a little more careful around those Foods. Then we also have a natural preference for savory as well and that corresponds to breastmilk as well because it has high levels of savory amino acids in it. So So we have a natural natural liking for that So. we also know that what mom eats during pregnancy influences her the the fetus and eventual baby through studies that look at mom's diet during pregnancy and then look at what the baby likes later on.

Alison Ventura (11m 14s):

And So, we have some studies that just observe this, you know they ask moms during pregnancy what are you eating? And then when the baby's maybe six months of age they see what the the baby likes. But there are also experimental studies which is really the best evidence we have for this where the scientists would give the moms maybe carrot juice over the course of their pregnancy. So they have a group that get carrot juice and the group who are asked not to eat carrots and then when they're Babies are six months of age they're actually able to give their Babies carrots versus maybe plant cereal and see how they react. And those studies show us that those moms who have this repeated exposure to carrot juice during their pregnancy have Babies who show a much greater preference for carrots when they're six months old.

Alison Ventura (11m 59s):

So that tell also So what do you think about that? what they need to like it? I was

Katie Ferraro (12m 3s):

Looking at the same study and I was like for real? Like how much does a six month old like or not like something like some of that is so subjective. I'm like, and we often tell parents like just cuz your baby makes a face, like I love that you're talking about like in utero we're measuring Babies making negative faces to kale and like honestly parents will be like then I'm not feeding my baby kale because inherently, instinctively they don't like it and I don't wanna do something damaging to my baby. And I'm like the takeaway message here is like just cuz your baby makes a face doesn't mean that it's "poisonous" and we should not be offering Bitter Vegetables but like with the carrot juice thing it's like, like how can you really tell if they quote unquote like it or don't like it? Like is that very strong data?

Alison Ventura (12m 41s):

Well it's the challenge of setting Babies, right? They can't just tell you what they like so you have to observe them. So I would say it's the best data that we have because we have unbiased observers. It's not that just that we're asking the moms did your baby like that or not? We do ask those questions cuz they're interesting but we have people who are trained at measuring emotional responses and there are actually pretty good behave like facial indicators of how someone is is feeling and responding to someone something. And so So we have observers who rate the baby's faces and and they're blinded to whether or not you know that baby, that baby's mom had carrot juice or or not and and able to really get at you know, are there more negative faces versus positive paces being made.

Alison Ventura (13m 28s):

And they also measure how much the baby eats too as a measure of liking and see that Babies eat more when they, when they have this more familiar food. So you're right that that only tells us so much and it is I think important for parents to take their baby's faces with a grain of salt as you're saying because those reactions can change over time. We know that Babies are really ready to learn. So just cuz they maybe don't show you a super positive face the first time they have something, that doesn't mean that they won't learn to like it over time.

Katie Ferraro (14m 0s):

And What about breastfeeding? Like what type of flavor compounds transfer via breastmilk? We kind of talked about in pregnancy the transfers via amniotic fluid, but I would assume the same principles hold truth through breastmilk. Is that correct?

Alison Ventura (14m 11s):

That is correct. So it is a similar mechanism that what the mom eats is transferred through the breastmilk to the baby. So for example, if mom has a garlicy pasta for dinner, then probably 20 minutes, 30 minutes later the breastmilk will have a garlicy flavor to it. So it's really again these odor compounds and Foods that are being transferred and it's that to really be this nice bridge So, we have this prenatal learning that's going on where the fetus is being repeatedly exposed to the flavors of the mom's diet and that's really prepping the, the fetus for the world to say okay these are the the Foods you're gonna experience. You better start to like them them cuz you're gonna need to.

Alison Ventura (14m 53s):

And then breastfeeding continues on that learning by continuing to transmit what the mom's eating to the baby so the baby can continue to learn and develop those Preferences.

Katie Ferraro (15m 2s):

Hey we're gonna take a quick break but I'll be right back.

Katie Ferraro (16m 7s):

Alison, I know you've published on the topic, I was like researching all the stuff you've done in the past, free amino acid content in infant formulas and I recently did some advanced trading on pediatric food allergies and for dietitians and pediatric dietitians and we were talking so much about all the different types of formulas and like, you know, tasting them too and just acknowledging that like some of these two are adult palates are are pretty nasty. So like if a baby for health reasons has to be on an amino acid formula or hydrolyzed, partially hydrolyzed formula for different sorts of health reasons, is there any data to show that that would have differing effects on baby's Taste Preferences later in life?

Alison Ventura (16m 40s):

There is, and these formulas are interesting because they do have a very strong flavor profile and it's due in part to all those free amino acids that, you know, these broken down proteins, those amino acids carry a lot of different Taste and flavors and we actually see that before four months of age. Babies don't react very strongly to those flavors. So, we don't know what exactly is going on there, but there's, there's something that is maybe still developing in their, you know, Taste in in small experience where they just don't react very strongly to them. It's after four months that we see Babies show real distaste more like maybe how we would react to those formulas.

Alison Ventura (17m 23s):

So that's maybe one lesson is if you have to introduce those formulas, hopefully you can do it early on before your baby kind of crashes that threshold into reacting strongly to those. But the bottom line is when it comes to learning from what we're eating, Babies are really just little sponges. Like what? Like they are with everything, right? So they're gonna learn from whatever they're eating, whether it's breastmilk or formula and they're gonna learn to prefer what's familiar. So the benefit with breastmilk is that it's a really varied experience that every day could be changing based on what the mom is eating. So the baby's getting the opportunity to learn, oh this is broccoli and we eat a lot of the broccoli in my house and this is, this is Apple and this is carrots.

Alison Ventura (18m 5s):

And they, they get to be exposed to all those different things which really supports, you know, expanding their, their Preferences for all those great Foods with formula. It's a more monotonous experience. They're gonna be having the same flavor profile every day unless their parents are changing formulas frequently. So that means that that you don't get as rich of a learning experience in terms of variety but that baby's still gonna learn to like that formula. And so then these protein hydrolysate formulas, they do have this stronger profile that in some ways is more similar to like the flavor profiles of broccoli or these dark green leafy vegetables. So there is some data showing that Babies who are on these protein hydro safe formulas show a stronger preference for Foods like broccoli later on because they're similar to the flavor of the formula that they've had.

Katie Ferraro (18m 55s):

That is so interesting. I never heard that. Yeah. Oh there you go. you guys, if you, it's a lot of our parents feel, oh my gosh I feel so bad my Babies to be on this formula, blah blah blah. Like hey maybe they'll end up liking broccoli as a result of it. This is just something I also thought of. We recently had some questions on this like how you know with Covid you can lose your s sense of Taste and then a lot of Babies have had COVID. Is there many data about like the impact of that or do Babies regain their sense of Taste more quickly? Cuz I can, you know, imagine having experienced that myself, like it's not that pleasurable to eat if food doesn't Taste like anything and that's certainly not what we want Babies experiencing. Do you have any ideas or thoughts there?

Alison Ventura (19m 30s):

I don't, I don't know if there's been any research on that. So it's an interesting question. I mean my only guess would be that you might have quicker recovery because we know that Babies are more what we would call plastic, right? They learn very quickly and are really moldable. So it may be that some early experience like that they might be able to bounce back quicker but I guess it might also depend on how long that loss was that they might miss out on an important window of learning if they had impaired Taste or smell for a long period of time.

Katie Ferraro (20m 5s):

Okay, let's say mom had like a very typical standard American diet sad during pregnancy breastfeeding. Is there anything she can do once the baby starts solid Foods to help expand that baby's acceptance of certain Foods or flavors or tastes?

Alison Ventura (20m 19s):

Yeah, definitely. So it all kind of breaks down to the same mechanism. So what we've talked about already is illustrates that repeated exposure is one of the primary ways we learn to like things. Meaning that if we experience something over and over and over again we Babies, they've learned to like it, it is just becoming familiar to it is a really important aspect of preference development. Early on So we saw that prenatally, that repeated exposure to a certain flavor promoted Preferences for it, we saw it during breastfeeding and we see that during solid food feeding as well. So once a baby is starting to eat different solid Foods, you are making sure that you're giving that broccoli 10 to 12 times giving your baby at repeated exposure to it so that they can learn to like it is one of the most potent tools that we have and some research has shown that works even better than like adding sugar or butter to, to the food that just giving it over and over again if, if you can be patient and persist is is a great way to, to get kids to like new Foods.

Katie Ferraro (21m 21s):

And I think our audience is really familiar with that statement, like the whole, you know, make sure you try the Foods 10, 12, 15 depending upon what resource you're looking at, you know, different times before you like or accept it. And it's actually, we've had Gill Rapley the, you know, original baby-led weaning philosopher co-author of the original baby-led weaning book just to kind of ask her idea on this point. And she made an interesting point that like while she likes the idea of exposure and parents learning about that and becoming familiar with it cuz it's like you don't just do broccoli once your baby makes a face and you're like oh my gosh they hate it and we're never eating it again. She said that she does feel sometimes that that messaging kind of gets misconstrued, does do many things Parenting infant feeding space to be like, well it's my job to make my baby like the food. And so I just wanna reiterate there that we're talking about exposures as like practice opportunities and giving your baby the opportunity to explore this new food.

Katie Ferraro (22m 6s):

The ultimate goal isn't to like make them eat X number of grams of broccoli every day so they get this many, you know, milligrams of vitamin C and I just wanna make that distinction so that parents don't feel like, oh my gosh this is so much extra work.

Alison Ventura (22m 17s):

Oh yeah, I wholeheartedly agree and, and it can be a hard thing to maybe throw out broccoli 10 times before you get, you know, your baby to eat the before your baby eats it on the 11th. So there definitely, you know, needs to be I think some consideration of how to make it work for your family, right? And how to make sure that, yeah, it's not a prescriptive thing of you need to eat this many bites as many times but rather are there ways that you can give your baby an opportunity to explore this food multiple times? Don't give up on it, keep trying and the Preferences will come.

Katie Ferraro (22m 48s):

I love that. Don't give up on it. So there's, you know, another kind of great area of debate in infant feeding this idea of the flavor window, right? A theoretical period of time when Babies will like or accept a wide variety of foods and flavors, Taste and textures. And we see it in action every day in the baby-led weaning space with Babies willing to try new Foods that, you know, toddlers wouldn't touch. So of course a lot of this is developmental and the difference between infancy and toddlerhood, but what are your thoughts on the flavor window when it opens, closes, if it even exists, thoughts on flavor window?

Alison Ventura (23m 17s):

It appears that there are maybe certain times when these repeated exposures and you know, experiences with certain Foods may be more linked to Preferences on learning and there's some data suggesting like the first month or two that when Babies are exposed to flavors through mom's milk, that that might be especially predictive of, of later Preferences for those flavors. So that would suggest that, you know, during the early period after your baby's born, making sure you're eating, you know, lots of fruits and vegetables while breastfeeding and then definitely during the transition to solids that's a really important time for learning as well.

Alison Ventura (23m 58s):

And as you mentioned, it is a time when Babies may be more receptive to trying new Foods. We might see them expressing more positive faces in response to new Foods. And so that can be a really, I think, important time for both parent and baby to, to learn about this new feeding context and and new Foods. And there is pretty good evidence as well that the, the later phase where it gets more difficult that you mentioned is a thing that once children reach 18 months to two years, then they may become more what we call neophobic or kinda unwilling to try new Foods and and a little more selective in their eating and it's really corresponds with their increasing independence, right?

Alison Ventura (24m 42s):

So I always like to say that it's actually a good thing that they're becoming more careful, right? Because as they're venturing away from you more maybe or or walking around more, just becoming more independent, they should be a little more careful with what they experience and, and it makes sense. And so I think that the more that we can get parents to relax during that period and know that it's a phase, it might last until your kid's about six, maybe longer, but as long as you can just relax and let them work through that phase and not change your strategy, you know, start to get controlling or encourage them to eat a certain number of bites or everything on their plate. Just knowing that as a phase can hopefully be helpful for you know, keeping on with the good practices you've instilled up until that point.

Katie Ferraro (25m 28s):

And I like that idea, you know, you're always trying to flip it and make it positive, right? Think of all the Foods that your baby can eat. Think of this next phase as like you said, it's actually beneficial because it's a somewhat protective mechanism that they're becoming a little bit more, I would say resistant to certain Foods. I wanted to ask you about just the use of the term, you know food neophobia because with toddlers, like again I teach a hundred first Foods program where the Babies try a hundred different Foods before they turn one and then parents will come back in the second year of life. So after they turn one be like my kid won't eat liver and kale and sardines anymore Katie, but they were like smashing it a few months ago. And that term neophobia, it's like they're not scared of new Foods, they're resistant to trying Foods that they previously liked.

Katie Ferraro (26m 13s):

Is there another term besides neophobia that gets used or could be used to describe Foods you used to like but now don't?

Alison Ventura (26m 20s):

I think selective eating would be maybe they become more selective in in what they're willing to eat during that phase. you know, picking is a distinct you, you might hear picking is but that is kind of a distinct concept as well. But I guess that's another way to put it is

Katie Ferraro (26m 35s):

Yeah and we try not to use that word, we don't wanna identify the child by their eating behavior, however that's the word that resonates with parents and it's kind of a good segue into the next questions cuz a lot of our parents and caregivers readily will admit, listen I'm interested in baby-led weaning because I myself am a picky eater or I have an older child who maybe them bombs calling that kid a picky eater and I wanna avoid that with this baby. So for families who maybe want to be more adventurous eaters or raise Babies who eat a wider range of Foods than maybe themselves or their older siblings, do the same kind of rules apply, you know, variety, keep it up, stick with it, don't give up or do you have any additional thoughts for those families?

Alison Ventura (27m 10s):

They do, but I think we should emphasize the importance of social learning too. So, we, we wanna make sure that it's not just, well I don't eat well but I want my baby to eat well and that we're offering all these, you know, wonderful Foods to our Babies but they're not eating them ourselves. So I know that might be hard if the adults or the other kids in the household already have baby habits with their eating or, or they feel like they're picky. But there is a lot of learning that goes on through modeling and you know, watching those around you. And so I think that those who maybe have that approach would wanna try to also incorporate approaches where they're also eating the Foods that they're offering to their Babies so that their baby can learn by watching them.

Alison Ventura (27m 55s):

And some of the research on, you know, repeated exposure has shown that when you know the moms go through this experiment where they're asked to drink, you know, carrot juice every day for a period of time, that their preference for that carrot juice increases as well. So that might offer some promise to these families that over time, you know, even though it may be difficult at first to expand the Foods that they're eating and serving for their family, that over time might help everybody, you know?

Katie Ferraro (28m 24s):

Yeah, we hear that from families all the time. Yep. Especially with whole grains. A lot of families in our program will be like Katie, okay, I never would've tried spelt or sorghum or quinoa. Like sometimes it's an exposure thing, but like okay I learned how to make it, I learned that it's a wow there's actually a fair amount of iron in there. Oh it actually does Taste good, there's another, you know, just giving other options. So for our parents so they don't get stuck in the pasta, potatoes and rice rut when it comes to offering carbohydrate Foods and they'll be like, yeah, I actually expanded my palate as well, which is another thing I like about the baby-led weaning model is that it does oftentimes help families expand the Foods that they're eating as well. I wanted to go back and ask you about the studies ultrasound 4D where they're determining, you know, it's an experimental study where you would give mom X amount of carrot juice.

Katie Ferraro (29m 8s):

How do they measure how much amniotic fluid the baby is swallowing? Or is it like counting the gulps? Like how does that actually get measured?

Alison Ventura (29m 17s):

Yeah, I believe it's counting that they would look at how many swallows the baby does. I don't know, I don't think they'd actually actually be able to measure volume. So

Katie Ferraro (29m 27s):

Alison, what about this idea of associated conditioning, like the notion that pairing flavors together in a certain way can help increase acceptance?

Alison Ventura (29m 37s):

So this is another way that familiarity helps us learn to like new things. So it's what we see during what we talked about with the prenatal learning and learning during breastfeeding. That occludin fluided has a flavor that's familiar to the fetus. The breastmilk is a flavor that's very familiar to the fetus. And so then when we bring in novel flavors like our, our carrot or garlic, just because that new flavor is paired with a familiar flavor, the baby's gonna automatically learn to like that quicker, to like that more because it's, it's paired with something that they know that they like that's safe. So that's kind of one of these early l learning mechanisms that we see.

Alison Ventura (30m 18s):

But it's also something that we can use as a strategy later on that if we have a, a new food that we want to introduce to our baby and have them learn to, like we can pair it with a food that we know that they already like. So an example would be putting breastmilk in the cereal that you have your baby eat or if you know that they like carrots, maybe mixing that into a, a new food and just the pairing of those Foods will help them like the new food.

Katie Ferraro (30m 45s):

Hey, we're gonna take a quick break but I'll be right back.

Katie Ferraro (31m 29s):

And another important distinction, it's pairing, it's not masking or hiding. And I think, you know, we routinely hear parents like, I'm hiding this Taste in this other thing that they really not like and we're like that that's not the goal here is to make trick your child to to eating kale. That's not what you're saying, but I think a lot of parents think, oh that's what you have to do to get Babies to like it. And you're saying that no, it's just kind of sometimes the vehicle that can maybe open them to trying it a little bit more. We're not trying to "hide those flavors".

Alison Ventura (31m 58s):

Exactly. Because if you hide the flavors and there is that whole movement of, you know, hiding vegetables and yes

Katie Ferraro (32m 4s):

It will not die, it's been around for so long and it's making a comeback and, and and i I know you're a mom too, like what are your thoughts on that? Like there are so many parents who are like, oh I just thought that's how you get kids to eat vegetable in my issues. Like you're teaching the child, there's something inherently bad about this new food and thus it must be, you know, hidden. I don't love it from like a theoretical standpoint but from like a scientific standpoint, I don't think it's that helpful.

Alison Ventura (32m 27s):

Right? I mean I guess if, if you wanna do it to maybe increase, I don't know to, to change what you're eating. Okay. But I agree that it's, it's not serving the purpose of getting your kid to like those new Foods that you really would want the flavor of the the new food to be predominant in what they're eating so that they're actually experiencing and and learning about it. So it is very different from this idea of, of hiding vegetables and food but it's rather pairing, you know, this this new food with something they already like having them experience both of those flavors and, and that we know that that will really accelerate their acceptance of that new flavor.

Katie Ferraro (33m 5s):

And I think when we talk about comparing especially like pouches with babyled weaning, Foods, you know parents, you know, what are the drawbacks of pouches? There are, there are many from developmental nutrition standpoint, a lot of times they're just apple or pear purees that are masking very, very small quantities of the food you think the baby's eating so oh this is a kill pouch. No it's not. It's basically green colored applesauce and on top of that your child's not learning to see the, they can't see the food in a pouch, they can't smell it, they can't feel it. It's very far removed from the food that it originally was. So coming back to this whole notion of like the sensory experience of learning how to eat when we make modified versions of Foods that the rest of the family is eating that they can see and touch and smell and Taste even if they don't quote unquote love it the first time.

Katie Ferraro (33m 48s):

My argument is that that's a much more developmentally appropriate way to learn how to eat than to to squeeze some package or processed food outta a plastic container into the baby's mouth when they don't get to experience that So. what about the idea of variety exposure, like we talked about repeated exposure, but how can parents work to increase the variety of Foods instead of just doing like broccoli over and over and over again? Yeah,

Alison Ventura (34m 10s):

So this is maybe promising, you know, research as well that can be helpful for families to know is that there, there is a lot of research showing that repeated exposure as we talked about is, is one of the best ways that that we learn to to like new Foods. But there's also research showing this idea of variety exposure can be beneficial as well. Whereas this means that we're not just giving broccoli every day but maybe we're alternating between broccoli and cauliflower and kale. So there are these Foods that are similar in in their characteristics but also different Foods and if we have this variety exposure, the that this is associated with increased Preferences for both those Foods as well as other similar Foods too.

Alison Ventura (34m 52s):

So I guess the bottom line is if we're offering our children a wide variety of foods and kind of making that a consistent practice and an expectation that you know, these are the different Foods that we have at our table that that can help them learn to like those Foods and accept them

Katie Ferraro (35m 8s):

Alison. Where can our audience go to learn more about your work and read some of this research on Taste and flavor?

Alison Ventura (35m 14s):

Oh, the website for our lab has links to our current research as well as information from our previous research and that's healthy kids.cal poly.edu And. you can also visit my website, which is Alison k Ventura dot com where I have links to all of our studies that we've done and a couple papers on this particular topic where your listeners can learn

Katie Ferraro (35m 36s):

More and I'll put that in the show notes for this episode and I'll also link some of those in the description where you guys are listening in this episode. But thank you so much Alison, this was so informative and interesting. I really appreciate you talking about Taste Preferences in Babies.

Alison Ventura (35m 48s):

You're very welcome. Thanks for having me.

Katie Ferraro (35m 50s):

Well I hope you guys enjoyed that interview with Alison Ventura currently at Cal Poly San Lupo formerly of the Monell Chemical Census Center. I for 1:00 AM just like fascinated to see, you know, how these different studies get designed and you guys know like some study design is better than others, but then just the application of some of this research, like what's the takeaway message for me as a parent? And hopefully you guys are walking away being like, okay, I can't just feed my baby fruit cuz they freaking love it. Like I need to get some of the Bitter Vegetables in there and we need the iron from the different plant and animal Foods and they need to have those allergenic Foods and you know, learning how to eat is this full sensory experience and that Taste and smell do have so much to do with it. And I know Alison mentioned Bitter Vegetables quite a lot in this interview and sometimes parents are like, ah, the Bitter Vegetables are like the hardest one to figure out how to feed cuz maybe you yourself don't particularly love them or cook them a lot.

Katie Ferraro (36m 41s):

But if you go back and listen to episode 155, I covered "Bitter Vegetables in How to Safely Offer Bitter Vegetables for Baby-led weaning". So I'll put that link as well as all of the other resources that Alison mentioned. That'll all be in the show notes for this episode, which you can find at b BLW podcast.com/three 16. And a special thanks to our partners at AirWave Media. If you guys like podcasts that feature food and science and using your brain, check out some of the podcasts from AirWave Media. Check us out online at blwpodcast.com and thank you so much for listening.